Charlie Rose

tartufe  01/17/2009 12:39 AM Report

SirD your media critique is spot on and applies right here on the CR blogs. This is from my comment re the cnversation on the movie Defiance:

Where was the world when _________________________? Fill in the blank. It's an open-ended perenial query. Darfur? Rwanda? Botswana? N. Korea? Yadda, yadda? Unless of course pigmentation colors your viewpoint.

Civilian population? Three hundred of the Gazans were children. Israelis have morphed into their favorite historical nemesis: holocaust cum hollow-cost.

N.B.: THIS COMMENT IS A REPOST DELETED BY CHARLIES PRO-ZIONIST MONITORS. IF THIS ONE IS MET WITH THE SAME FATE, I WILL FLOOD EVERY CONVERSATION, REGARDLESS OF CONTENT. WITH A COPY, UNTIL THEY HAVE TO SPECIFICALLY FILTER ME OUT.

ISRAEL IS BETTER SERVED BY CRITICISM THAN FAWNING RATIONALISTS.

They haven't deleted the second time YET. But even once was highly disappointing, but illustrative of your very point. The media's bias tenticles will reach for the testicles if you dare take on their sacred cow, Israel. A Gestapo tactic.

SirD  01/14/2009 06:54 PM Report

The Israel bias in media, even fair media like Charlie's show is embarrassing. Listening to Ignatius use the word "great" when referring to Israel is like listening to a servant shower praise on a master. Everybody in Washington knows, if you're not glowing about Israel at all times you'll have the the massive lobby on you in a heartbeat, defaming your reputation and derailing your career. As long as the tiny country remains inscrutable and above critique, the longer Arab unrest will continue to mount.

AntonGrambihler  01/08/2009 04:29 AM Report

It is interesting that the Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913, the same year that the Income Tax Amendment (16th Amendment) and Senators becoming representatives of the people instead of the States (17th Amendment) occurred. Was this just a coincidence?

After passage of the 17th Amendment, the Senators became selected by Special Interests and voted on by the people. In 1917, as soon as a Majority of the Senators were selected by the people, the Senators voted for President Wilson to turn a European war into World War I by allowing him to declare war on Germany. The 16th Amendment insured that the bankers would be paid for funding the war.

Was this the first phase of the Theodor Herzl Zionist movement to break up the Ottoman Empire and aid in the creation of a Jewish National Home in Palestine?

Were the NAZI attacks on the European Zionists Preemptive strikes to stop their future slaughter of the Palestine People?

Was the Anti-Defamation League founded to provide propaganda and thus aid in the taking of the Palestine Land for the creation of a Jewish State?

Are these the reasons that people who disagree with the officially mandated truth about World War II are put into prison?

hms  01/08/2009 02:43 AM Report

Give Thanks Where its Due

---------------------

DavLev you say:

" Thank you Britain for provoking much of the conflict."

When it would probably be more accurate to say:

"Thank you zionism for provoking much of the conflict".

As you might be aware, christians and jews lived side by side with muslims for hundreds of years in the holy land.

Its was only after the zionists started systematically dispossessing the native population of their land and livelihood and turned an entire population into refugees, that the area returned to being a zone of conflict.

I personally dont blame the zionists for having a desire to form a jewish state in the holy land, what I blame them for is showing such disregard to the rights and feelings of the people who already lived there.

One would not be wrong to have expected better from a people who themselves were made a target of injustice for so long.

Also, a people claiming to be the heirs of the great prophets from the children of Israel, would do justice to that claim if they also showed the same level of concern for protecting the rights of the downtrodden (regardless of their racial/genetic heritage) as these great prophets had and preached.

Simple genetic lineage is not a valid basis for claiming spiritual heritage (at least not in the eyes of God), one must also follow their message in its letter and spirit.

Well, at least there is the day of judgement to resolve any confusion about these matters (I hope the zionists still believe in that).

But it would certainly be better for all us come to realize such things ourselves, while we have a chance!

-Peace

Ricardo_Amaral  01/08/2009 01:54 AM Report

Here is what I posted on the Elite Trader Forum in December 2006:

December 19, 2006

SouthAmerica: They will continue broadcasting programs like that because we have a larger Jewish population in the New York Metropolitan area than the population of Israel.

The Jewish Population (2005 Est.)

Israel = 5,021,506 people

USA = 5,914,682 people

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ism/jewpop.html

********

Here is the “History of the Hebrews” in a nutshell:

Around the year 2,000 BC Abraham (the founder of the Jewish religion) is supposed to have migrated with his family into Canaan.

Egypt's king, Ramses II, is now thought to have reigned between 1290-1224 B.C. – this is supposed to be the time when Moses lived and the Jews had their Exodus from Egypt.

At this point they were lost in the desert for 40 years then they managed to find the Promised Land. That brings us to estimate the birth of the Promised Land to around the year 1,180 BC.

King David – Goliath and so on is supposed to have happened around the year 1,050 BC.

In 970 BC King David is succeeded by his son Solomon.

In 721 BC the Assyrians overrun Israel, disperses the Israelites and takes thousands as slaves. Israel as a nation vanishes.

******

Now let us put the spotlight on all this information and try to put it on a more realistic perspective.

Around the time of Abraham – this is where Hebrew history starts – the total world population is estimated to have been around 27 million people – and demographers know that 70 % of the population at that time were living in China and in India. That leaves about 8 million people to populate the rest of the world.

I guess at that time Abraham is just starting the Hebrew lineage.

Then we go to Moses time and the Exodus. Total world population is estimated to be around 45 million people around the year 1,200 BC. Again 70 % of the total is living in China and in India – that leaves about 14 million people scattered around the world.

Is it possible that this Exodus from Egypt involved less that 5,000 people? If we want to stretch even further since these people were supposed to be building Pyramids then let’s says there were 10,000 people who left Egypt with Moses in the Exodus. (I can’t imagine 10,000 people being lost in the desert for 40 years, but again…)

Let’s go now to the year 721 BC when the Assyrians overruns Israel, disperses the Israelites and takes thousands as slaves. Israel as a nation vanishes. The year 721 BC is the end of old Israel, until Israel it is recreated by the British in 1948.

In 721 BC the total world population is estimated to be around 80 million people. Again 70 % of the total is living in China and in India – that leaves about 12 million people scattered around the world.

Is it possible that the Israel that were destroyed in 721 BC had no more than 50,000 people living in that area of the world in small villages raging in size from a few hundred people to maybe 2,000 or 3,000 people?

Can anyone on his right mind justify the mess in the Middle East based on this story of a very small group of people who happen to have lived a long time ago?

**********

Here is the estimated global population from 10,000 BC to 2006 AD.

Total World Population in Selected Years:

Year…………..# of World Population

10,000 BC…………4 million people

5,000 BC…………..5 million

4,000 BC…………..7 million

3,000 BC…………14 million

2,000 BC…………27 million

1,000 BC…………50 million

500 BC………….100 million

200 BC………….150 million

1 AD…………….170 million

200 AD………….190 million

300 AD………….190 million

400 AD………….190 million

500 AD………….190 million

600 AD………….200 million

700 AD………….210 million

800 AD……….…220 million

900 AD…….……240 million

1,000 AD………..265 million

1,100 AD………..320 million

1,200 AD………..360 million

1,300 AD………..360 million

1,400 AD………..350 million

1,500 AD………..425 million

1,550 AD………..480 million

1,600 AD………..545 million

1,700 AD………..610 million

1,750 AD………..720 million

1,800 AD………..900 million

1,850 AD……...1,200 million or 1.2 billion

1,900 AD……...1,625 million or 1.6 billion

1,925 AD……...2,000 million or 2.0 billion

1,950 AD……...2,500 million or 2.5 billion

1,960 AD……...3,000 million or 3.0 billion

1,975 AD……...4,000 million or 4.0 billion

1,985 AD……...5,000 million or 5.0 billion

1,999 AD……...6,000 million or 6.0 billion

2,006 AD……...6,500 million or 6.5 billion

Note: If you do check various sources regarding the history of world population then you will find out that the various estimates varies a little from source to source for the figures before 1 AD, but at the end of the day their estimates are not too far apart.

Source: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1299837&highlight=Moses#post1299837

Ricardo_Amaral  01/08/2009 01:52 AM Report

Here is what I posted on the Elite Trader Forum in December 2006:

December 19, 2006

SouthAmerica: Yes, this thread title is “Middle East Meltdown and US Foreign Policy.”

It is ironic that we are discussing that mess from the Jewish position on all this including the holocaust and everything else.

But if we discuss this topic from a United States position and the self-interest of the United States regarding US foreign policy around the world then it is another story.

Then we come to the real relevant questions from a US point of view:

1) Why is the United States is burning so much clout, prestige, and wasting so much borrowed money on the Middle East when its real self interest as a nation it is about “OIL” and nothing else.

2) Now we come to the second question: Why is the United States backing up Israel in the Middle East when it makes a thousand times more sense to be in the side of the Arab states and the Palestinian people?

I am sure that if the United States had been on the side of the Arabs all these years then the radical Arabs would not have the need to come to the United States and blow up buildings with airplanes as they did in 9/11.

By siding with Israel the United States is infuriating the very people who are supplying almost 50 percent of US energy (OIL) and also all these trillions of US dollars of recycled oil money that have been invested in the US by the Arab countries.

In terms of United States foreign policy it does not make any sense to back up Israel in the Middle East – and that policy is not costing the US loss of clout and prestige only in that area of the world – that policy is destroying US clout and prestige everywhere around the world.

It is a terrible policy and the only reason that the United States continues to sink in quicksand is because the Jewish Lobby is very powerful in the United States and they are able to convince Americans to stick with a losing proposition such as is the case of US policy regarding the Middle East.

The United States unconditional support to Israel in the Middle East is creating a situation that is snowballing in the Middle East – and everybody knows what happens to you when you are standing on quicksand.

If you want to bring Hebrew history to support your case of why the United States should support Israel – but that is crazy since at best we are talking about a very small group of people who grew to at most 50,000 people by 721 BC – who had a brief history from 2,000 BC to 721 BC.

Based on that the Hebrews wanted to reclaim by 1948 the land their ancestors had lost 2,700 years ago.

The entire world has changed since 721 BC, and many other groups of people over the years got kicked out of their lands by other groups of people including the native Indian peoples who used to populate the Americas from North to South.

As a US foreign policy based on self-interest and also on a rational level it makes no sense for the United States to give the unconditional support that it has been giving Israel for a long time.

It is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let’s review one more time: the claims that the Hebrew people has over the land of Israel.

Here is the “History of the Hebrews” in a nutshell:

Around the year 2,000 BC Abraham (the founder of the Jewish religion) is supposed to have migrated with his family into Canaan.

Egypt's king, Ramses II, is now thought to have reigned between 1290-1224 B.C. – this is supposed to be the time when Moses lived and the Jews had their Exodus from Egypt.

At this point they were lost in the desert for 40 years then they managed to find the Promised Land. That brings us to estimate the birth of the Promised Land to around the year 1,180 BC.

King David – Goliath and so on is supposed to have happened around the year 1,050 BC.

In 970 BC King David is succeeded by his son Solomon.

In 721 BC the Assyrians overrun Israel, disperses the Israelites and takes thousands as slaves. Israel as a nation vanishes.

Source: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1300196&highlight=Moses#post1300196

.

Ricardo_Amaral  01/08/2009 01:50 AM Report

Here is what I posted on Elite Trader Forum in July 2007:

July 30, 2007

SouthAmerica: $ 30 billion dollars in military aid – for a country smaller than New Jersey – and about $ 8 billion dollars of this aid it is in cash

For a country with a GDP of around $ 140 billion dollars – why make peace in the area and risk losing the free ride.

Israel government annual budget is around $50 billion dollars including defense spending of around $ 10.5 billion dollars.

You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that a large part of the defense spending from the Israeli government annual budget goes to pay salary for the soldiers, pensions, health care, maintenance of arsenal including the nuclear arms and so on….

After all these normal expenses related to defense spending there is not much money left to increase the Israeli destruction capabilities. That is where the US military aid comes handy – and most of the bombs, guided missiles, and god knows what else that have been killing thousands of people in the Gaza strip, in Lebanon and so on – the carnage and death toll in that area comes with the compliments of the United States government – and all these deadly weapons have the label “Made in USA”.

Israel have been receiving military aid from the United States since 1973 – adjusted for inflation and in terms of current dollars probably the United States have invested over $200 billion dollars in military aid to Israel during the period 1973 – 2007.

The American investments in military aid to Israel during all these years are paying great dividends just look around in that area of the world – Lebanon, Gaza Strip, Iraq and so on…

And we usually use “Enron” as an example of what looks like a bad investment.

What would have happened if instead of giving all this military aid to Israel during all these years if the money had been invested instead in education, and a Marshall plan to help lift all boats in that area of the world?

I don’t blame the Israelis from wanting to keep the gravy train coming.

Source: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1549499&highlight=Israel+budget#post1549499

.

fjgajewski  01/07/2009 11:44 PM Report

Did you notice how, with each new disruption in the Levant, American Christian fundamentalists begin salivating because "Jesus is coming"?

tartufe  01/07/2009 04:09 PM Report

Well said hrc!

hrc  01/07/2009 11:58 AM Report

There simply is no further excuse for Israel, or reason for being. There is no end game with their conflicts. To the extent we are complicit with them is to our national shame.

stephenbwise  01/06/2009 10:40 PM Report

In a 1938 address in New York, Albert Einstein spoke about Palestine and a future Jewish state. His thoughts are edifying and still relevant for those who are honest seekers of peace in that part of the world today:

" Just one more personal word on the question of partition. I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state. Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaim will sustain - especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight strongly, even without a Jewish state. We are no longer the Jews of the Maccabee period. A return to a nation in the political sense the word would be equivalent to turning away from the spiritualization of our community which we owe to the genius of the prophets."

Stephen B. Wise

New York

REMant  01/06/2009 10:22 PM Report

meant to say Hamas are Shiite-funded, not Shiites per se, and seems to me that there must be a connection between such Sunni extremists and similar Iranians that has so far not been well elucidated

tartufe  01/06/2009 09:57 PM Report

Geopoliticisms that I beleive:

1. The creation of Israel was the largest geopolitical blunder since WWII.

2. Israel could well be the lynchpin for self-fulfilling Armageddon so desirable by certain zealotry.

3. Israel zionists would rather risk seeing the end of the world with a state of Israel than its continuation without their desired state.

4. Israel's so-called friendship is costly financially and geopolitically. (Abandon us to highest bidder in NY minute, e.g. to China?)

5. Would risk us going to war on their behalf in a NY minute (with Iran, Pakistan . . .?)

6. In short with friends like Israel . . . .?

tartufe  01/06/2009 09:21 PM Report

Ain't it grand to be a citizen of a country that condones and encourages the brutal atrocities of the woe-is-us forever whimperers re the holocaust when they themselves are master perpetrators of their own in Gaza - making the WWII holocaust a hollow-cost. Their disproportionate response of 600+ kills, many hits on more than one school killing innumerable children, as testimony to their atrocities and inhumanities.

Charlie asked Helen Suzman if S. Africa had a sense of social conscience. No need for the same query re Israel. They're entitled to damn near any human and inhuman act, land and degrading bit of arrogance ever devised by Hitler, Goehring, Goebbels et al. They're chosen for those needing reminding.

The putrefying reference by one conversant as Israel being an "ally," was a (gagamaggot) disheartening reminder of the depths of our ME policy. That we consider these murdering diproportionate ravagers of human despair an ally says our fall in world opinion is well earned and well deserved.

We don't need enemies (we have Israel), but as long as our insensibility to humane and human needs continues we will accumulate enemies apace. Ignoring the civil infrastructure needs: water, sewage, electricity, medicine, food, free movement, yadda, yadda; then becoming indignant when their victims protest, will not endear us globally.

Short sighted. Israel's persistent rubbing the Palestinians noses in their own excrement (then killing their children when they protest), will doubtless increase the quest for the-bomb even more as their impotent rage makes them resort to extremes. Constant humiliation makes relief imperative - irrational or not.

Obama, that political whore, has already defaulted away an honest brokers role, so we will continue to kowtow to the Israeli lobby and subsidize the murder, the human degradation, the arrogant goose-stepping Huns of the ME.

Happy Hanukkah and Sieg Heil!

DavLev  01/06/2009 08:02 PM Report

The settlement freeze has virtually nothing to do with the current status of the conflict. Israel has every right to the so-called settlements, as much of the land is still disputed. UN242 addressed the conflict correctly..borders are to be negotiated by both parties and agreed to, providing security for both. In the meantime, Arabs are building in occupied areas..and there are Jewish settlements. Both have equal rights. In any final settlement, this will be history. The conflict is simple, the Arabs (see Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.), do not want a Jewish state in their midst. Arafat was right, this has been going on for 100 years. Had the Arab world accepted the partition in 47, all the conflict would not have taken place..we would have 2 states, side by side (per Bush plan), in peace. After every war, Israel offered the Palis a state..to the continual 4 nos..from the Arab League, no peace, no negotiation, no recognition, no compromise. It is as true today as in 1967. This latest flare-up was caused solely by the Hamas elected government...it could have been avoided after Israel withdrew from the Strip, leaving 22 settlements and dozens of manufacturing plants. Instead, it's thank-you were Kassams, then Grads, then Katyushas..and hundreds of smuggling tunnels AND tunnels near the borders (to smuggle in guerrillas (terrorist) to attack Israeli communities, kidnap Israeli soldiers and civilians and create havoc. Israel erred against Hezbollah 2 years ago, by allowing the cease fire to end it's military actions thus creating an untenable situation on it's borders. Now, again, when Israel has the upper hand, the world demands a cease fire..to what end? This is the bottom line: with Iran's nukes pending, and Israel's over 200 high fusion atomic bombs..either these people will live side by side, or perish side by side. It's really up to them.

All the rhetoric about settlements is sheer nonsense, and begs the question. Before there were settlements these two peoples fought over the land, statehood, and the presence of Jews in the Arab world. Thank you Britain for provoking

much of the conflict.

Christopher  01/06/2009 06:18 PM Report

Great show, great analysis, especially Matin's comments on the necessity on the settlement freeze, it is not their land... Martin's experience really bears fruit on his insightful analysis. Also, the candid remarks about the internal Israeli politics was also relevant. I think the show was an honest effort to understand the conflict.

BENEZRAA  01/06/2009 06:06 PM Report

DAVID AND GOLIATH

Dear Mr. Rose,

If indeed it is your birthday, as commented on earlier, then "Happy Birthday" and many more to come. Your program is a national treasure and would never be the same without you.

I'd like to support the comments of Shalom Freedman with one observation that Shalom seems to have missed. Repeatedly, spokesmen for the Israeli government, when pressed for Israel's reason for the current incursion into Gaza, have addressed the need to stem the illegal flow of weaponry into Hamas hands and into Gaza altogether. The Rockets Glaring Red into Gaza are spoken of as a matter of rhetoric and useful proximal cause, not from a sincere view of internal compassion for Sderot. The Israeli Government could care less about Sderot and believes that the people of Sderot should shut up and go away or at least accept their status as being in a place inevitably to be a welcome target for an acceptable level of terror. The current government is of the ilk that, as Haifa, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv are okay, then the rest of the country should just shut up, accept it's buffer status, remain off the radar. As for Gaza, Judea-Samaria, Golan, and Sheva Farms -- well, as long as the party can go on in Tel Aviv, who needs these territories?

May I make a request, Mr. Rose? Can you do something that no one else in our drunken media has done? Can you have a two-week long series, even if if is only one or two short conversations per larger show of other matters, in which you converse with "Jewish Settlers"? I know a few personally and I would be happy to be a liason - even to go to Israel and interview them for you - so that a conversation may begin, where there has been none, to show that Jewish Settlers are not the raving, fanatical, right wing lunatics that they are made out to be in the press!

No doubt by now you have been struck by the incongruity of the "truth" as it appears in the bas relief of reality. The "truth" is the irrational ideology - neh, dogma - that Israeli surrender of land will bring peace, and that if it does not, somehow there must be something else that Israel is either doing or failing to do, that makes Israel's enemies unwilling to cease terrorizing both Israel and the world at large. The reality is that the more Israel gives away, the more emboldened the Muslim Jihad becomes around the world. As for Israel itself, the reality can best be described as a Zeno Paradox: If Israel concedes half the land, Israel will be half-way to peace; if Israel then concedes half of the half, then Israel will again be half-way to peace; and so on indefinitely - with the qualification of course that Israel cannot survive on continually diminishing fractions of land. Even now the world expects Israel to give up territories that for so many reason are indispensable to Israel's existential rights.

A look at Gaza today gives the lie to the ideology of land for peace. A look yesterday at Lebanon gives the lie to that ideology as well. The world makes the incessant demand of Israel: "Give this piece of flesh today and we will give you peace until we demand the next piece of flesh tomorrow." Is it any wonder that the Israeli Government has become so corrupt, valuing nothing more than hotel hedonism in Tel Aviv and gambling in Jericho? Is the world at large ignorant of the Biblical prohibition to consume living flesh, to drink blood? Is the world so drunk, it does not know what it is doing?

Violent attacks today against Jews in Holland, France, England, and Spain and violent protests in those countries, Greece, and all around the world should be tolling the bell for the West as to just how emboldened the Muslim Jihad has become. They know no borders and respect no borders!

John Donne famously wrote, "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less... any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. " This view is clearly a Judeo-Christian and not a Muslim Jihadist view. Those in the West, who may even perceive Israel to be nothing but a "clod" , still fail their own moral and ethical tradition by their condescension towards Israel and by failing to appreciate their own endangerment before today's Muslim Jihad.

Why such a dramatic loss in perspective after so few generations since the lessons of the Jihad-supported Holocaust? It is as if the battle of David and Goliath were being observed in an arena through dual distorted lenses, one magnifying the image of David enormously and the other shrinking the image of Goliath to such a degree that David is misperceived to be Goliath and vice versa!

"David" - if he is even still alive - is alone and miserable, a tortured human being, cut off from world and sun in a prison compound in Gaza. His name is Gilad Shalit. If there is mercy due Hamas, then all Hamas need do is free Gilad Shalit and place him safe and sound into the arms of his beloved mother and father in Israel. "David's" name is also Sderot. If there is mercy due Hamas, then all Hamas need do is to accept the right of Israel to exist, to respect the border with Israel, and to cease terrorizing the townspeople of Sderot, whom they bombard daily with Qassam rockets.

May there be miracles of peace in this New Year and again, Happy Birthday Mr. Rose!

BENEZRAA  01/06/2009 06:06 PM Report

DAVID AND GOLIATH

Dear Mr. Rose,

If indeed it is your birthday, as commented on earlier, then "Happy Birthday" and many more to come. Your program is a national treasure and would never be the same without you.

I'd like to support the comments of Shalom Freedman with one observation that Shalom seems to have missed. Repeatedly, spokesmen for the Israeli government, when pressed for Israel's reason for the current incursion into Gaza, have addressed the need to stem the illegal flow of weaponry into Hamas hands and into Gaza altogether. The Rockets Glaring Red into Gaza are spoken of as a matter of rhetoric and useful proximal cause, not from a sincere view of internal compassion for Sderot. The Israeli Government could care less about Sderot and believes that the people of Sderot should shut up and go away or at least accept their status as being in a place inevitably to be a welcome target for an acceptable level of terror. The current government is of the ilk that, as Haifa, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv are okay, then the rest of the country should just shut up, accept it's buffer status, remain off the radar. As for Gaza, Judea-Samaria, Golan, and Sheva Farms -- well, as long as the party can go on in Tel Aviv, who needs these territories?

May I make a request, Mr. Rose? Can you do something that no one else in our drunken media has done? Can you have a two-week long series, even if if is only one or two short conversations per larger show of other matters, in which you converse with "Jewish Settlers"? I know a few personally and I would be happy to be a liason - even to go to Israel and interview them for you - so that a conversation may begin, where there has been none, to show that Jewish Settlers are not the raving, fanatical, right wing lunatics that they are made out to be in the press!

No doubt by now you have been struck by the incongruity of the "truth" as it appears in the bas relief of reality. The "truth" is the irrational ideology - neh, dogma - that Israeli surrender of land will bring peace, and that if it does not, somehow there must be something else that Israel is either doing or failing to do, that makes Israel's enemies unwilling to cease terrorizing both Israel and the world at large. The reality is that the more Israel gives away, the more emboldened the Muslim Jihad becomes around the world. As for Israel itself, the reality can best be described as a Zeno Paradox: If Israel concedes half the land, Israel will be half-way to peace; if Israel then concedes half of the half, then Israel will again be half-way to peace; and so on indefinitely - with the qualification of course that Israel cannot survive on continually diminishing fractions of land. Even now the world expects Israel to give up territories that for so many reason are indispensable to Israel's existential rights.

A look at Gaza today gives the lie to the ideology of land for peace. A look yesterday at Lebanon gives the lie to that ideology as well. The world makes the incessant demand of Israel: "Give this piece of flesh today and we will give you peace until we demand the next piece of flesh tomorrow." Is it any wonder that the Israeli Government has become so corrupt, valuing nothing more than hotel hedonism in Tel Aviv and gambling in Jericho? Is the world at large ignorant of the Biblical prohibition to consume living flesh, to drink blood? Is the world so drunk, it does not know what it is doing?

Violent attacks today against Jews in Holland, France, England, and Spain and violent protests in those countries, Greece, and all around the world should be tolling the bell for the West as to just how emboldened the Muslim Jihad has become. They know no borders and respect no borders!

John Donne famously wrote, "No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less... any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. " This view is clearly a Judeo-Christian and not a Muslim Jihadist view. Those in the West, who may even perceive Israel to be nothing but a "clod" , still fail their own moral and ethical tradition by their condescension towards Israel and by failing to appreciate their own endangerment before today's Muslim Jihad.

Why such a dramatic loss in perspective after so few generations since the lessons of the Jihad-supported Holocaust? It is as if the battle of David and Goliath were being observed in an arena through dual distorted lenses, one magnifying the image of David enormously and the other shrinking the image of Goliath to such a degree that David is misperceived to be Goliath and vice versa!

"David" - if he is even still alive - is alone and miserable, a tortured human being, cut off from world and sun in a prison compound in Gaza. His name is Gilad Shalit. If there is mercy due Hamas, then all Hamas need do is free Gilad Shalit and place him safe and sound into the arms of his beloved mother and father in Israel. "David's" name is also Sderot. If there is mercy due Hamas, then all Hamas need do is to accept the right of Israel to exist, to respect the border with Israel, and to cease terrorizing the townspeople of Sderot, whom they bombard daily with Qassam rockets.

May there be miracles of peace in this New Year and again, Happy Birthday Mr. Rose!

REMant  01/06/2009 04:26 PM Report

The Israelis may be getting in last licks before the Bush admin leaves office, but I think they've been emboldened no less by the imminent presence of Rahm Emmanuel in the White House, Clinton as Sec'y of State, and the drop in oil prices reflecting, so they may think, lessened Arab influence. Hamas may be trying also to capitalize on the unfavorability of Bush, but I think this is something of a stretch, and that the goal is to act as provocateurs. Which, it seems the Israelis have fallen for, but they may also have the ulterior motive of drawing us further into a confrontation with Iran. It seems that the reason many other Arab countries have joined Israel in condemning Hamas is only because Hamas are Shiites and they are Sunni. In any case the rockets may tewwowize ppl, but do very little real damage, and the response, as usual, has been disproportionate. Even if it were, it would be seen by their foes as unmanly and worthy of contempt. If you want the Arab's respect, said T E Lawrence, you do not pull guns on them. At the very least, the behavior of the Israelis towards the inhabitants of Palestine since WWII proves that they were what they always claimed to be, good Germans, who didn't deserve to be sent to camps. How, in fact, do the Jews reconcile the alleged lack of cosmopolitanism in the Germans, when they loudly proclaim themselves to be the holiest people on earth? I'd use this as an excuse to cut off aid to them, which should have been done a long time ago, and send over Bernie Madoff & co to help them. Perhaps it is time to reconsider where American interests really lie.

ShalomFreedman  01/06/2009 01:59 PM Report

The concluding part of this discussion was the old and foolish demand that the United States achieve a peace in the Middle East by bringing Israel to make concessions. There was no consideration of the basic fact that Israel does not have peace because the other side refuses to make peace. There was no consideration of how to change the mindset of Syria or the Palestinians or Hizbollah in regard to Israel.

On the Syrian question I was truly amazed by David Ignatius. He sat with Assad and Assad told him he wants to sit at the table with Americans. Wonderful. Ignatius does not seem to understand that Syria is bound to Iran and cannot move without it. It is far more afraid of Iran than it is of anyone else, and it is not going to give up its alliance with Iran because of American promises. Iran is staying next door, and the U.S. one way or another will soon be out of the area.

Aluf Benn the 'Haaretz' journalist instead of focusing on Ehud Barak's alleged political motives for Israel's response to Hamas attacks on its civilian population might have explained that the major reason for the whole operation is precisely that: To stop missiles falling on Israel's civilian population. The 'timing' might have been explained in relation to Hamas recently increasing the range of its rockets and now putting close to one- million Israelis in their range. Benn did however make a good point at the end about the Israelis reluctance for further withdrawals after two led only to increased violence against them.

There was nothing said about Iran's role in the arming and financing of Hamas.

Charlie Rose's questions were reasonable and informed. But he too suffers from the failure to really understand the character of the Islamist world now.

Paulp_Nonfiction  01/06/2009 01:48 PM Report

Dear Mr. Rose:

I very much enjoyed your show last night.

Oh! I heard it was your BD!

Happy Birthday, Mr. Rose and the best for 2009!

Paul