Charlie Rose

writersblock25  12/10/2011 04:53 PM Report

Thank you for posting this, CharlieRose, LLC.

writersblock25  12/06/2010 03:24 AM Report

I do not have a problem with an interview devoted entirely to the relationship between Sally Heming and Thomas Jefferson (like this one), but I definitely agree with Abraham that a separate discussion on the historical relationships between masters and their females slaves should be welcomed.

AdrianZolkover  12/22/2008 06:48 PM Report

Re: Charlie Rose, Current Affairs, Books Interview of Annette Gordon-Reed December 18, 2008

In the Charlie Rose, Annette Gordon-Reed interview December 18, 2008 she states that Thomas Jefferson is the father of 7 of Sally Heming’s children, but that only 4 of them lived. She deliberately ignores mountains of most important information about Thomas Jefferson that would invalidate her “facts” and musings about Thomas Jefferson. Martha Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson’s wife and mother of his children, died in 1782. Sally Hemings had her first child Harriet in 1795. The following evidence is persuasive, convincing and leads to the opinion that Thomas Jefferson was NOT the father of any of Sally Heming’s children. I got my information from the books THE JEFFERSON-HEMINGS MYTH, AN AMERICAN TRAVESTY, published 2001 by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society; and the book JEFFERSON VINDICATED by Cynthia H. Burton, copyright and publication 2005, Library of Congress control #2005902894. I recommend reading these books. They present chronology charts; DNA test results; observations of witnesses, families, and contemporaries at Monticello.

1) Sally lived at Monticello from childhood through many child bearing years, and didn’t become pregnant until Sally was 22 years old, 13 years after Martha died.

2) Only Sally’s last child’s, Eston’s, lineage has been tested in 1998 for DNA and shows he descended from Sally and A male Jefferson, not necessarily Thomas. Eston Heming’s DNA was tested from John Weeks Jefferson, whose family had always claimed lineage from “a Jefferson uncle”, meaning Randolph. Because Thomas Jefferson had no sons they must use the male Y chromosome from the DNA of his brother, nephews, male cousins, or another male carrying the Jefferson Y chromosome. They can’t trace this DNA lineage through generations of females.

3) Sally’s son Madison’s descendants, who were located after much effort, have refused to be DNA tested. We don’t know that a Jefferson fathered any other of Sally’s children.

4) The rumor that Sally was Thomas Jefferson’s wife Martha’s half sister is just that, a rumor. The book ANATOMY OF A SCANDAL – THOMAS JEFFERSON AND THE SALLY STORY by Rebecca L. McMurry and James F. McMurry, Jr. explores this issue and their competent detailed research based on documents of record concludes this is a myth.

5) Even if we want to make the BIASED ASSUMPTION that more than Eston of Sally’s children was fathered by a Jefferson, it is again MOST UNLIKELY that Thomas was the Jefferson that fathered them.

6) Thomas Jefferson arrived in Paris 1784, as the U.S. Ambassador to France, and was accompanied by his oldest daughter Martha who was 12 years old, and James Hemings. 1787. Three years later Jefferson’s other daughter Mary accompanied by Sally Hemings arrived in Paris. There Sally Hemings was introduced to the non-slave Negro society that were friends of her older brother James. Thomas Jefferson and his family returned from Paris December 1789. Sally’s first child Harriet was born on October 5, 1795 when Thomas Jefferson was 52 years old; he was 65 years old when Eston, Sally’s last child, was born. In those days life expectancy was much shorter and people aged earlier, and had the ailments that may arrive with age. Thomas Jefferson had severe arthritis for many long years, and other ailments that appear with aging.

7) Thomas Jefferson’s younger brother Randolph Jefferson had become widowed between the years of 1796 and 1807. Randolph was born on October 1, 1755. He would have been between 41 and 52 years of age when his first wife died. Thomas Jefferson was born April 13, 1743 and was 12 ½ years older than Randolph. Eston, Sally’s last child, was born on May 21, 1808, when Randolph was about 52 ½ years old and Thomas was 65. When Jefferson retired to Monticello in 1809 after completing his second term as President, Sally quit having children. Randolph was remarried 1808 or early 1809, and after this Sally had no more children. Randolph’s oldest son, Thomas, married on October 3, 1808 and after this Sally had no more children. President Jefferson died July 4, 1826, when he was 83 years old.

8) Randolph’s residence and farm was 20 miles away from Monticello. Randolph had 5 sons, 4 of child bearing age in their early 20’s when Eston, Sally’s last child, was conceived. Randolph and his sons visited Monticello, and one or more of his sons periodically lived at Monticello. In the book JEFFERSON AT MONTICELLO by J. A. Bear, Jr., he reports that the slave Isaac reported that Randall was a simple man that used to come out among black people and play the fiddle and dance half the night. There are written historical statements from interviews with Thomas Jefferson and others expressing Randolph’s sometime lack of intelligence, character and personal discipline. Some writings indicate Randolph was somewhat intellectually retarded.

9) There were other male Jefferson relatives that visited Monticello. From a map it appears the Carrs lived less than 5 miles from Monticello. President Jefferson’s sister Lucy Jefferson Lewis and her family, and Martha Jefferson Randolph and her family lived almost adjacent to Monticello.

10) In archives is a letter dated August 12, 1807 where Thomas Jefferson writes to his brother Randolph that Randolph’s twin sister was then visiting Monticello and that he and his family were invited to visit, and also that Randolph was expected to deliver grass seed to Monticello. This was slightly more than 9 months before Eston’s birth. Randolph and his family likely visited at that time.

11) There is a journal of Thomas Jefferson’s letters; and when Jefferson was at home, at his insistence his daughter Martha J. Randolph, her husband (who managed Monticello) and their children (they had 12 children, one 13-14 years old around the time Sally became pregnant with Eston) lived at Monticello for the duration of his visit. Their own home was near to Monticello. Sometimes they arrived before he did. Also while Thomas was at Monticello, at times his sister and cousins visited.

12) Family letters express the great affection and respect the Jefferson family had for each other; and of Thomas Jefferson’s impeccable behavior regarding visibility of his living quarters and policies that servants were to be in his quarters only in his absence.

13) The whereabouts of the slaves was not at all times known. There were times when Sally helped out at estates neighboring Monticello.

14) Thomas Jefferson married Martha Wayles Skelton in 1772. She was a widower. They had 6 children. Only 3 lived beyond infancy, 2 beyond childhood. Martha Wayles Jefferson died in 1782. Their daughter Martha (Patsy) married Thomas Mann Randolph, Jr. in 1790 and they had 12 children, and all survived childhood except 2 that died in infancy. They lived almost adjacent to Monticello. Martha Randolph lived until she was 64 years old. Their second surviving child, Mary (Maria, Polley), married John Wayles Eppes. They had 3 children and only one survived beyond age 3. Mary died giving birth when she was 26 years old. They lived about 60 miles from Monticello. President Jefferson’s sister Lucy Jefferson Lewis and her husband and children lived near Monticello.

15) When Martha Wayles Jefferson’s father died, they inherited his estate and slaves, and debts of what would now be over a million dollars that was paid for the slaves and secured by the slaves. President Jefferson died leaving considerable financial debts. Attorney Richard E. Dixon, author, page 160 “The Case Against Thomas Jefferson: A Trial Analysis of the Evidence on Paternity” THE JEFFERSON-HEMINGS MYTH “Jefferson’s financial situation would have prevented his freeing his slaves under Virginia law. It may also be that he would have let more or all go but for the legal claim of his creditors.” And laws made it difficult for ex-slaves to survive. After being freed Sally’s brother James became an alcoholic and committed suicide. Page 185 In a published article Madison, Sally’s 4th and next to youngest child, speaks of Jefferson “He was hardly ever known to get angry… He was uniformly kind to all about him being kind to all at all times.” Jefferson’s writings about human rights transcend his own circumstances and time.

He wrote in several articles that he thought miscegenation, bearing multi racial children, was degrading to all races involved. This was written at a time when slavery was legal and he held senior government offices. Within Monticello the slaves probably led a comfortable life; but when he died he was badly in debt. He freed Sally and some other of the more senior slaves. The remaining slaves were considered part of the assets used as collateral for his inherited debts. And when slaves were freed there was an abundance of laws to prevent their gainful employment, and they had to leave Virginia.

If he were having an affair with Sally why didn’t she become pregnant before she was 22 years old, or during the 13 years after Thomas’s wife died? Sally had her first child in 1797 and last child 1808; Randolph was a widower 1796-1808. And Randolph had 4 sons of child bearing age when Sally became pregnant and they sometimes lived or visited Monticello. Randolph’s oldest son married in 1808. And Randolph was known to have a somewhat retarded intellect. And he enjoyed “fiddling” around with the slaves. President Jefferson retires to Monticello 1809 and Sally has no more babies. That President Jefferson was the father of even one of her children is possible, but I think most unlikely. Some might be of the opinion that the difference is only academic; that what big difference would there be if Thomas and Sally, two consenting adults, had a sexual relationship? I think it would have been much out of character for the brilliant, most principled, most important and dashing man, who was close with his and Martha’s children, to have a sexual relationship with a family slave Sally; for whom he held enough personal regard to have her help raise his children. I think there would be many accomplished, Caucasian, not slave women, who would be desirous of Thomas Jefferson’s attentions. From Sally’s point of view I think the statements from scholarly spin masters who (twist, manipulate, and ignore an overabundance of evidence to the contrary) state that Thomas Jefferson was, or even was most likely, the father of Eston and or Sally’s other children is degrading to Sally, as well as to President Jefferson, as well as to United States history.

And some of the “scholars” that state in writing and lectures that he was the father of Eston and or more of her children are those that own and work for Monticello and are professors at the University of Virginia, both institutions that were founded by Thomas Jefferson. They have a fundamental responsibility not to lie and deface their founder Thomas Jefferson. They have changed the name from The Monticello Thomas Jefferson Memorial Foundation to The Monticello Thomas Jefferson Foundation. With its present administration, I think the Monticello Corporation has no reason to continue as a public facility representing Thomas Jefferson, its founder, or United States history. Academia would be better off without those that misstate, deceive, lie, and prosecute their institutions’ founder, instead of presenting the available information and wherever it may lead. They should be removed from their positions of responsibility. I conclude that because Thomas Jefferson was an extraordinarily brilliant, principled, judicious and discerning person, and because of much additional evidence which supports my conclusion, it is extremely unlikely that President Jefferson would have had a sexual relationship with, and or impregnated Sally Hemings. As multiple public records show, and as these scholars would have known, there were many other male Jeffersons, some adolescent or in their early 20’s, frequently at Monticello when Thomas Jefferson was there, and particularly during the time when Sally became pregnant with Eston, who could have been the father of Eston. And as to the rest of her children, there may have been several different fathers, as reported was so with Sally’s mother.

I emphatically question the motives of people who have an agenda to publish BIASED AND MISINFORMING opinions and conclusions [and to the extent that they ignore most pertinent scientific evidence and historic evidence, LIES] about the very person who probably did the most, in his day, to end slavery. Jefferson wrote numerous articles, including his first draft of the Declaration of Independence (exhibits are available), where he states that slavery is “a cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty” and that slavery is “an assemblage of horrors”. They made him delete his opinions about slavery from his draft of the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was arguably our most significant founding father. He was the most instrumental in establishing democracy with the new idea that he first wrote in the Declaration of Independence “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” Additionally “That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.”

Annette Gordon-Reed spends a great deal of time weaving her tales and “facts” about Thomas Jefferson, while deliberately ignoring and excluding most pertinent and verifiable information about Thomas Jefferson, arguably the United State’s most significant founding father. Reed’s raping the legacy of Thomas Jefferson is a disservice to society.

(Ms.) Adrian Zolkover

mabraham  12/22/2008 03:35 AM Report

The relationships between slaves and slave owners would merit a full series. I was a little disappointed that you chose to spend more than 20 min talking about TIME's ridiculous yearly horse race which left you with less than 15 minutes with Anette Gordon-Reed who had so much more to say.

bratschekind  12/21/2008 02:07 AM Report

I have to agree with herbar. The Hemmings/Jefferson story is a fascinating one, but unfortunately Ms. Gordon-Reed is not a very conscientious purveyor of the facts. Many of her claims are impossible to verify. She stated that Jefferson had even fathered the children who died in infancy. Since they have no descendants to test how can one possibly make that claim? It's possible that Jefferson fathered those children, but since I'm sure their remains or DNA no longer exists, it is absolutely impossible to ever know. Unfortunately this interview did a disservice to the facts. I love Charlie Rose, but he certainly didn't do his homework on this one.

herbar  12/20/2008 09:16 PM Report

Mr. Rose I would greatly like to share my research with you and your viewers regarding the mishandled Jefferson-Hemings DNA Study and especially the misinformation and misguidance expressed by Mrs. Annette Gordon-Reed in her new book. She is definitely misleading her readers and viewers by stating that Thomas Jefferson fathered seven of the Sally Hemings children. There is MUCH that should be known about this study and of those who would confuse the citizens by politically correct agendas. You are being "CONNED" by several sources. Read the Scholars Commission Report (13 top scholars) from the cited web pages, who found no proof that TJ fathered any slave child.

I assisted Dr E.A. Foster with the test and the first "train wreck" happened when he tested a KNOWN carrier of the Jefferson DNA, John Weeks Jefferson, and the Eston Hemings family claimed it to be "a Jefferson uncle" as reported in the Washington Post (Sept. 21, 1976), twenty-two years before the DNA test results were announced. I have first hand knowledge that Dr Foster DID NOT so inform Nature, as I had recommended, of this. To further test and not acknowledge that in all probability a match would occur is, in my opinion, unprofessional and downright deceptive science and became more so as it was passed up the chain for reporting and evaluation at Monticello.

Mrs. Gordon-Reed also fails to inform the reader that among the 7 children of Sally that she claims were fathered by TJ was a Thomas Woodson, who was completely ememinated by the DNA Study.....there was NO match of the Jefferson and Woodson DNA, even though that was the major Campaign Lie of 1802 by James Callender starting this whole controversy.

I urge all to read web pages: www.tjheritage.org and www.jeffersondna.com for full details. A great expose book, "In Defense of Thomas Jefferson, The Sally Hemings Sex Scandals" is due out in the next 6 months, (see Amazon). In my opinion, Mrs. Gordon-Reed does not deserve the Book Award, unless the award is for downright misleading the public and that she does an outstanding job.

In her first book she states that the Eston Hemings descendant was not proven by DNA to be a descendant of Thomas Jefferson, YET in her latest book she claims that TJ fathered seven of Sally's children. Does anyone recall of hearing of a GREAT BREAKTHROUGH in finding these "FACTS" in any scientific or historical source? Herb Barger