Charlie Rose

Lucky Barker  10/26/2008 06:03 AM Report

! ! !Only MY opinion = TRUE! ! !

...

The Russo-Georgian war exhibited the features of a proxy war pitting US-NATO imperialism against Russian nationalism. Russian forces thwarted Georgia's armed provocations and issued a challenge to American and NATO policies in the borderlands.

When Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin and President Dimitry Medvedev ordered Russian forces to move through South Ossetia and cross the border into Georgia, they violated the UN charter. Their initial justification - defense of the Ossetians' right of self-determination - was as arbitrary as the one the United States and NATO put forward for their attacks on Kosovo and Serbia, where unlike in Russia's case their self-defense was never involved.

So, in responding unilaterally to a very real threat that had actually materialized, did Russia commit an act of aggression? Neither the UN Security Council nor the General Assembly could make that legal determination. Even if they had, Russia wouldn't have taken seriously a US-NATO charge of aggression that served only to emphasize its accusers' egregious double standards.

In the course of conducting the war, Georgian ground troops, tanks and some South Ossetian militia deliberately targeted civilians, committed acts of ethnic cleansing and wantonly destroyed civilian property in Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, and in villages along South Ossetia's border with Georgia proper.

kamen  10/09/2008 06:16 AM Report

Two months later - and everyone sees how completely wrong these two Russia "experts" have been. Just to show you how incompetent USA government is on the foreign relations.

These guys even claim to know what Russia's interests are better than Russia itself, imagine that !

lala  10/07/2008 10:28 AM Report

Stop thinking in which country deserves approval; think on Ossetia’s people’s wellbeing.

Dmitry  08/30/2008 12:02 AM Report

Dear americans. At first, I beg your pardon for my poor english.

I just want to refresh your mind and say, that in South Osetia and in Abkhazia 99% people have Russian passports, and they are Russian citizens. When Osama killed 2 thousands american people in WTC you destroy Afgan (killed, and continue to kill sivillian people in Afgan and Iraq). So why Russia must just stand and look how suffer our citizens??? You may ask:"Why in SO people have russian passports and not gorgian?" I can answer. Because gorgians killed ossetins in 1921, in 1991, in 2004, and ossetians just DO NOT WANT LIVE WITH GEORGIA. BTW it was referendum in SO and Abkhazia and 98% vote for independence. If you talk about freedom why you refuse them in they're right to be free? Because you don't think about freedom, you think only about oil and natural gas. American geologists found an oil, but above it there is some country ))) So let's destroy it! And declare about democracy, "weapons of mass destruction" and so on, so we have a cause to kill and suck out they're oil.

MyView  08/29/2008 05:22 PM Report

I am only 15 and I know that no one would bother listening to a 15 year old, but believe it or not, I have my own views on this.

I don't understand why Russia is getting all the blame? And why do all the countries feel it necessary to PUNISH Russia?!?

It was, after all, Ossetia who wished to unite with Russia. It's not Russia who said to Ossetia "Unite with us or there will be trouble".

The only reason Georgia disagreed with this is because there are useful resources located in Ossetia, and if Ossetia united with Russia, it would mean that Georgia would lose out.

But the point is, Ossetia WANTS to unite with Russia. When other countries decided to seperate from Russia and join another, or become independant, no one protested.

So why with Ossetia?

Do you people not realise what a (and I don't mean this in a downgrading way) poor country Ossetia is?

Do you even know how much it suffered during this war?

No you don't.

Because all of you are sitting in the comforts of your own home, by your computers or laptops.

Granted, I am doing the same.

America has always wanted Russia on it's side, but Russia refused.

This is the whole reason why America sided with Georgia.

Russia made a very good point when it asked America about it's troops in Iraq.

Sure, America can bomb Iraq, but Russia can't stand up for Ossetia? Ossetia, who without the help of Russia would have been completely destroyed?

It is extremely unfair that Russia gets all the blame. But that's politics for you.

I also find that the surrounding countried of Russia (such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania etc.) have really shown a true act of betrayel to Russia.

After watching the latest news, do you know what I've realised?

I don't want a new mobile phone, or a new laptop or a car or whatever.

I want WORLD PEACE!

World Peace.

Please, I'm asking you all to just step back and view the situation from my point of view.

Agnie  08/25/2008 02:40 PM Report

There is an interesting suggestion from Steve Levine. The Russians have a big weakness. Bush, Obama and McCain should keep in mind Russia's Achilles Heel as they deal with Putin and Medvedev. Levine knows this area, having covered wars in Chechnya, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, Tajikistan as well as the Soviet-Afghan war: http://oilandglory.com/2008/08/russias-achilles-heel.html

LA  08/23/2008 04:57 AM Report

Georgia provided many troops to assist the US in Iraq. The US invaded

Iraq to control its oil. Russia is invading Georgia to control the BTC

pipeline for its oil. Bush did it to Iraq. Putin is doing it to Georgia.

This would have never occurred before invading Iraq. Bush took the

opportunity of having the world's sympathy due to 9/11 to invade Iraq.

Which he had no business doing. Now, the US appears weak and

overstrained and Putin knows this and is flexing his muscles. My biggest

fear is China. China is a sleeping giant waiting for an excuse to join

forces with Russia so they both can control the region. China and

Russia want the Stan's back.. Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc. European

forces are complacently waiting to see how the US is going to respond.

If the US responds using force China will join forces with Russia and

they will be a huge threat to Europe in the future. If the US responds

only through politics then they will lose Georgia and the power of

Russia will grow. This power will be a big threat in the future and many

countries regionally will be in fear. Russia is expecting the US to get

involved and I believe they already have a plan of action for a US

response. We cannot let them implement this plan. Europe needs to throw

them for a loop and take over this situation. Russia must be stopped now

but not by the US. Europe needs to step up and flex.

Dan  08/16/2008 09:24 AM Report

Rock on?

TABS  08/16/2008 03:44 AM Report

Dear Dan:...........We could always put up a soap box for you in Hyde Park.

Dan  08/15/2008 07:38 PM Report

interesting video I found of an interview with an American in South Ossettia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbUEBsTqzlQ

Dan  08/15/2008 07:32 PM Report

Dear TABS - I appologise for putting that statement to your comments, it was from someone else. However what you say about Mr. Putin is misinformative as you have no facts to back it up with and are purely speculating.

what USSR did back in the 1960's is not what Russia is about today, do not confuse the 2. Look at what USSR did in mid to late 70s and 80s. As far as US actions being condemmed. If you are trying to go back into history 40 years ago, you my friend are fighting a losing argument, Russia is not that country anymore, in fact USSR in the 80's was not that country anymore. lets look at recent events, Afghanistan, while French was against Iraq invasion, Russia was not nor did it Condemm US. Russia joined US in fight against Terrorism. so lets stop there for a sec. word Terrorism - does it only apply when USA is under attack, or should it apply to any country that has genocide, ethnic cleansing done against it. I well beleive that it should. ok so lets get back on point here, Georgia commits acts of Genocide, which is what I would consider Terrorism, only this time we dont have a group of Al Queda doing it, we have the whole Georgian Military force doing it under command of Mikhail Sakaashvili.

so how come US is shielding him? how come not one person on the news has asked Mikhail "Why did you invade Ossettia and attacked its people?", I was watching today a commentary of a 12 year old girl who was in South Ossettia when bombings happened, she was in restaurant when it started happening. she is a US citizen from San Francisco. She and alot of her family had fled to North Ossettia to escape further danger from attacks coming from Georgian Military, Ironically this was on Fox News, another Ironic thing, web sites like Youtube are now trying to ban that video from showing, WHY? to hide the truth behind Sakashvilis attacks, to hide what really happened?

TABS  08/15/2008 05:35 PM Report

Dear Mr Dan:...........If you read my earlier comments critically, you will see that I placed NO value judgement on Russian actions. I merely stated what Russian motivations were and that Mr Putin is a consummate statesman who should not be underestimated....With regard to the US being hypocritical, one can recall that back in the bad old day the Soviets used to condemn every action of the US while invading places like Czechosloviakia themselves. It is all spin designed to coerce one into doing what you want them to do.

Dan  08/15/2008 04:34 PM Report

Dear TABS - My logic is not 2 wrongs make a right, my logic is, where does US get the balls to tell Russia to stop attack on Georgia, when in fact it is exactly what they did and would do again should this happen to US, please show me facts hat prove otherwise.

in terms of Afghan, Russia does things differently than US, they get to the point quicker, rather than go through month or 2 of pointless politics that do nothing but anger its citizens, they just take care of the threat, which is what any great leader would do to get their point across.

its funny you should bring up Hussein, while I know what a Tyrant he was, and do not agree with his tactics at first, and supported Bush and USA to go in there and remove him from power, I have to rethink my original thought of him, there is one thing you never heard on the news when he was in charge of Iraq, that is car bombs exploding in downtown baghdad, why? you might ask, because he was feared like Stalin was, because of the consequences, such as: not only they would have to pay, but their whole family will pay as well.

Now looking at the issues that are still going on in Iraq, I ask myself this question, does Iraq need a leader like Hussein to restore peace to their community? I come to a realisation that yes they do. it what works for them, apperently what we are doing in there doesn't, no matter how hard our efforts might be.

as to make an example out of Georgia, it is exactly that what Russia did, and I support their tactics all the way.

Also I have to ask myself this, is there a reason US is trying to solve this peacefully and outright said that they would not take any military action against Russia, is it possible that behind the scenes they look at Mikhail and go "is that guy that big of an idiot, to attack Russian citizens and expect Russia to do nothing?". I had several conversations with my American Colleagues at work and even at Certain bars I go to regarding this crisis. Most of the responses I get lean toward US needing to keep their nose out of Russias back yard, I do get some very interesting responses from the other 20 percent of people, remarks that outright make me laugh, the notion that US should carpet bomb the Russian federation, are those 20 percent of people that Naive in US to think that is the tactic that will resolve this, my response to that statement was simple, if you beleive that is best move, then go grab a shovel, dig 50 foot hole in ground, cover yourself up and dont get out for 50 years since Nuclear war would end our existance.

I have been to many countries around the world, while I do not understand all their Politics or Governement regulations/goals, I do use common sense, common sense tells me that you need to take care of your own, and should someone hurt yours, you hurt back 10 times as hard. While some people get to their Violence is not the answer, I say neither is "operation clean field".

TABS  08/15/2008 04:05 PM Report

Mr Willis.....It is called PAX AMERICANA. The US maintains its power, prestige and wealth by meddling in other peoples affairs for the benefit of America. It was America who launched the idea of a Global Economy after WW2. Of course at the time the American leadership was thinking more in terms of containing a Soviet menace in the east. It was called the Marshall Plan. From there it has grown into a global economy that has added 1B people to the Middle Class. It is the American Empire which is not based on military occupation as empires of the past were. But is based on the notion of Capitalism and Free Trade. One might say it is Mickey Mouse, the Big Mac and Coke Cola that has conquered the world. The American military acts as the policeman to the world, to ensure stability and peace so that commerece can continue unimpeded.

TABS  08/15/2008 03:52 PM Report

Please be careful about using my name in your header, as someone might construe your statement as being made by me...........That being said, the USA has a strategic interest in maintaining a steady, uninterrupted and reasonably priced flow of the energy source that fuels the global economy. It is more about an energy source than oil.....Each of the countries you mentioned is a particular case that has complexities beyond just oil. Thinking it is just all about oil is a simplification.

Kenneth Wills  08/15/2008 03:43 PM Report

Check yourself at the door. Russia has 55,000 actual citizens living in the region in question. Georgia decided to launch a surprise attack on the region, even after saying otherwise. If I was the leader of Russia, I would have done the exact same thing. The US is in Russia's backyard again trying to destabilize that country, given Putin's track record of success in turning that nation around. The US uses military force on a regular basis to justify what they call protecting thier allies or spreading thier rare form of democracy. This is the biggest joke I have seen in decades. Now what? Don't fear the terrorists. We have a new threat. Fear Russia. What a joke. The US needs to get thier damned nose out of everyone else conflicts and start worrying about its own citizens. That government is purely irresponsible, two-faced, cycnical wanna-be tyrants. Get a life George Bush. McCain please just drop of the face of the Planet, you arew worthless. Obama, you are just as much a politician as the rest of them. You have already begun to outlive your usefulness unless you do an about face and get back to serving the citizens of America.

As for Russia, if it was me, I would dispose of the Georgian goverment for attacking my citizens, kick the USA out of my backyard and that would be the end of it. Europeans can go ahead and put an oil embargo on Russian, then freeze through the winter if they like. As for Missles defense, the next thing I would do is attack Poland and any other country where the US things it can place missles and run them right out of my backyard as well. Period. The US needs to stop screwing with people before someone does get really pissed of and launches nuclear weapons on mass at us.

Re TABS   08/15/2008 03:39 PM Report

Please...isn't it all really just about oil...

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran and the U.S. support of Georgia!

TABS  08/15/2008 02:58 PM Report

Dan:.....Russia is "going to make an example" of Georgia???? Also your logic is flawed in that two wrongs make it right. If the US is such an aggressor nation, it seems that Russia is now an aggressor nation as well. Just because America does it does not mean the rest of the world has to sink to our level of debasement. After all you are Russians and not thugs, right?...... BTW: The attack on Afghanistan was initiated because the attack on the WTC emanated from Al Qaeda which was being hosted by a repressive, religious regime. The US gave every chance to the Taliban to give up Osma Bin Laden. However they chose not to, and suffered the consequences of their actions. So don't play this agression in Afgan nonsense. The second issue is Iraq, which a question is posed to you. Is the world better off with Sadam or without him (Sadam was an indiscriminate murderous thug, whose hero was Stalin)? Making the only assumption that a rational person could make, is that the world is better off without him. Therfore the only thing left to consider is the means. The goon squad in Washington decided to be expedient and use the most direct means available. The only thing wrong with that plan is that they had no plan beyond direct action. Other than that Iraq could have been a model of democracy and hope in the ME.

Dan  08/14/2008 07:46 PM Report

then what would you call US attacking Afghanistan and Iraq? or do you consider those 2 countries to be equal military style ot US?

its hypocritic views of US that angers many people around the world including US citizens such as myself. the "do as we say, not as we do" tactic that is nothing more than bull you get to hear everyday on news channels like Fox News, CNN, and from AP, to name a few.

But when someone actually comes out and tells their side of the story, you automatically label them a Liar and a hate spreader? where do you get off to make those kind of remarks.

I do not see Russia losing temper or over reacting, I see them as making an example out of Georgia, to show what they can and will do should you mess with their people. I see nothing wrong with that, it is exactly what US did and would do in future.

TABS  08/14/2008 07:39 PM Report

Then Mr Dan..... What your saying is that Russia is easily provoked into using unnecessary heavy handed military action at what amounts to be a mosquito of a countries provocation. That Putin is not very sophisticated because he used a heavy handed approach rather than a more rational one and verges on being a wild man that loses control of his temper very easily. Which gives even more reason for the US to be suspicious and on heightened alert to Russian outbursts of anger.

Dan  08/14/2008 05:21 PM Report

Response to TABS- I wish I knew how much Putin is worth, I don't, and neither do you nor the information you are reading apperently, because 39,999,000,000 is alot of money to be off by.

are you seriously naive enough to beleive that Russia went after Georgia because of Oil prices? you need to quit watching Fox News. Western economy is failing because of US Government, not because of Russias Oil prices, quit putting blame onto others that belongs on us here in the US.

do you really beleive Russia's intentions are to destroy Georgian government, if they wanted to do that, it would have been done 3 days ago.

as I said before, I do not see them pull troops out till the 6 points have been met, and on top of that, I am sure they want Sakashvili out as president of Georgia and locked up somewhere. it was funny to see the demostration that was in Tbilisi that was aired on US, what was not said on the US Television was the interview of the people during that demostration that said "we are here to support each other, not our government".

TABS  08/14/2008 04:44 PM Report

The US has been forced into a dilemma. Georgia has been an ally and friend. The US has given aid and military support. The Russians have invaded the country rightly or wrongly, it is a matter of he said, she said. Does the US support a friend in the region or lose credibility as in not supporting its allies in the face of hostile military action. That is the real issue facing the US......As to the matter of he said, she said, it serves Russian interests to muddy the waters in that it sows doubt in the West as to the true motives for Russian military action. The question here is have the Russians stopped their advance, that is the fact that the belies the real Russian motives. They have after all stopped the genocide from happening which was their stated aim, or do they have other aims that are not being articulated.......One Mr Putin is now playing the same politcal game on the world stage that he has successfully played in Russia. It does seem ironic that Russia has invaded Georgia just at the moment when the price of oil is falling. Could it possibly be that the Russians were driving the price of oil futures with the aim of weakening the west economically. With the ultimate aim being the reasserting of its hegemony in the break away Soviet states. The question here is not that they have the shrewdness to contemplate such a move but whether they had enough capital to accomplish it. Now that is a conspiracy theory worthy of a novel.

TABS  08/14/2008 04:43 PM Report

The US has been forced into a dilemma. Georgia has been an ally and friend. The US has given aid and military support. The Russians have invaded the country rightly or wrongly, it is a matter of he said, she said. Does the US support a friend in the region or lose credibility as in not supporting its allies in the face of hostile military action. That is the real issue facing the US......As to the matter of he said, she said, it serves Russian interests to muddy the waters in that it sows doubt in the West as to the true motives for Russian military action. The question here is have the Russians stopped their advance, that is the fact that the belies the real Russian motives. They have after all stopped the genocide from happening which was their stated aim, or do they have other aims that are not being articulated.......One Mr Putin is now playing the same politcal game on the world stage that he has successfully played in Russia. It does seem ironic that Russia has invaded Georgia just at the moment when the price of oil is falling. Could it possibly be that the Russians were driving the price of oil futures with the aim of weakening the west economically. With the ultimate aim being the reasserting of its hegemony in the break away Soviet states. The question here is not that they have the shrewdness to contemplate such a move but whether they had enough capital to accomplish it. Now that is a conspiracy theory worthy of a novel.

TABS  08/14/2008 04:07 PM Report

Dear Dan:....... I have given your comments some thought. One flipant response was that you must be one of those who thinks that Stalin was a cruel but effective leader. You actually said in another comment you prefered the Soviet system and would never have left if it were still in power. The question I have to pose to you is. Putin's net worth officially is less than 1M USD. Unofficially his net worth has been speculated to be in the neighborhood of 40B USD in Russian oil and gas companies. So it would stand to reason that what is good for Putin is good for Russia in that the Russian economic miracle is based upon Petro Dollars. Which do you think is the more accurate figure? Your answer to this one simple question will be very telling.

vadim  08/14/2008 12:48 PM Report

Hi,

And another thing - Whenever happens in former USSR - its a "comminust-hand" of Russia. But look at USA whenever happens in the world - USA is there! What is the difference?

and second - Russia is always bad by default.. Nobody wants to dig deeper and find out the real truth! Maybe this time Russia is not the bad guy! Maybe Russia was saving lives of innecent people and gave peace to those who survived? Or everybody without any evidence knows that Russia is always wrong? Maybe UNO should investigate first what really happend there and then we bring Russia in a verdict of guilty? As I see from western media - Cold War against Russia is still going on... maybe its convenient for USA and EU to see Russia as an enemy? Its very sad!

vadim  08/14/2008 12:30 PM Report

Hey,

I am not agree with Putin's policy at all but western media is blaming Russia in everything! Everybody is talking that Russia wants back to the time of USSR its so untrue everything changed and nobody wants comunists back. But using "cold-war strategy" against Russia u could isolate russians from democracy and western culture! Its a wrong way of having dialogue with Russia! Also if Russia occupied S.Osetia why refugees are moving to the agressor to Russia? Just simple logic. Also look into the history of Yugoslavian war. Did you help Serbia in keeping Kosovo? NO! Why you helping Georgia to kill innocent civilians then? Don't Osessians have a right to be independent from its murder? Go back to the history of georgian-osessian relationship... its not the first time Georgia is commiting genocide of osessians. Forget about the politics just help who suffer now and need real help!!!

Re Moses  08/14/2008 01:58 AM Report

Thank you for your detailed research. I have copied and pasted, enlarged and will read it in its entirety, and suggest that others make the effort to give it due attention. The fact is it is nearly impossible to get a truthful unbiased and historical perspective from the U.S. corporately controlled media. PBS makes us feel like we're getting the truth, but it only goes so far. You really have to dig for yourself and, as you say, go to the international media.

sock puppet  08/13/2008 11:45 PM Report

Hey moses - give us a break. Your diatribe of over 2,000 words is too tedious for onscreen reading. I tried some of it as it looked fact-ridden, at least somewhat, provided the documentation is valid. From memory it was feeding my cynicism re the neocons pulling our string. A proxy war where others die in our stead at our provocation fits my admittedly skewed view of the capabilities of this administration, their ruthlessness and jingoistic penchant for blood and profiteering topped with enemy making indifference to so-called collateral damage.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________

I would appreciate your distilling this down for me (I'm lazy), with citable documentation of our inciting a proxy war. Did we really tweak / twist the Russians tail using a Georgian fist, and then get indignant at their response on the world stage? It sounds too-clever-by-fractions, ala WMDs, Vietnam, yadda, yadda. Like we should expect something different?

Dan  08/13/2008 11:35 PM Report

my appoligies it is not in this video Russia says about 6 points its in the one with Churkin.(sp)

Dan  08/13/2008 11:31 PM Report

Dear TABS:

a: I lived in Russia for 10 years back in USSR days.

b: My Grandpa was a KGB agent, so I know a little more about how one acts than you might.

c: Russian military is by no means second class. they can mobilize alot faster than US or any other country for that matter, hence their swift counterattack.

d: There is a reason Putin was chose as Time's Man of the Year, and its not because of your so called "Cold, calculating, cunning and ruthless in the attainment of ones goals is an apt description of a rise to ultimate power in Russia". When in fact he is a very well respected person Globaly, unlike our president GW Bush. Who needs to take public speaking 101 course, prior to making anymore remarks anywhere.

I see US as being hypocrite when it comes to Russia attacking Georgia, their people got attacked and they reacted by counterattack on a much greater scale. If you can flex your muscle to make the others turn around and run for their lives, why wouldn't you? thats exactly what US did in Afghanistan (more recent occurence) not to mention several other countries before hand.

on another note, as much criticicm as French get, their president is the only one that is doing something about 2 countries meeting half way and resolve this matter without further millitary presence.

what many people fail to understand or listen to in that matter, it is even said in this video, is Russia will withdraw its troops once the 6 points have been met. All this "Russia breaks Truce agreement" is bunch of bull, till the 6 points are met I do not see them withdrawing their troops.

ReEcho5November  08/13/2008 11:08 PM Report

Boots on the ground? One hundred and thirty US. military advisors just finished practice maneuvers with the Georgian military, hours before the Georgian military invaded South Ossetia in the middle of the night, after promising there would be no such attacks. There are many witnesses to the suffering and torure of the South Ossetians prior to the Russian response, but we are not seeing that on the mainstream media.

ReEcho5November  08/13/2008 11:03 PM Report

Boots on the ground? One hundred and thirty US. military advisors just finished practice maneuvers with the Georgian military, hours before the Georgian military invaded South Ossetia in the middle of the night, after promising there would be no such attacks. There are many witnesses to the suffering and torure of the South Ossetians prior to the Russian response, but we are not seeing that on the mainstream media.

TABS  08/13/2008 09:59 PM Report

Can you imagine Putin sitting in the audience at the Olympic games in Beijing, calmly smiling while his tanks are moving into Georgia? That my friends is pure political cunning in its highest form. Mr Putin presence was for damage control if the need arose and one could also bet that Mr Putin had some kind of dialog with GW Bush and or the Chinese. When that was accomplished he got on his jet back to the USSR. Mission Accomplished.

TABS  08/13/2008 09:44 PM Report

Dear Dan:...................Since when were agents of the KGB ever noted for their humanitarianism? Think of the system that Putin grew up under and the mind set it took to rise to power under those circumstances. Cold, calculating, cunning and ruthless in the attainment of ones goals is an apt description of a rise to ultimate power in Russia. The Russians are a tough people who understand privation and are willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to attain a goal, that is their history. The Russian leadership views Americans and Western Europeans as being complacent bourgeoisie without any backbone to stand up. They have found their propitious moment of opportunity and they have taken it to reassert themselves on the world stage.

TABS  08/13/2008 09:43 PM Report

Dear Dan:...................Since when were agents of the KGB ever noted for their humanitarianism? Think of the system that Putin grew up under and the mind set it took to rise to power under those circumstances. Cold, calculating, cunning and ruthless in the attainment of ones goals is an apt description of a rise to ultimate power in Russia. The Russians are a tough people who understand privation and are willing to sacrifice whatever it takes to attain a goal, that is their history. The Russian leadership views Americans and Western Europeans as being complacent bourgeoisie without any backbone to stand up. They have found their propitious moment of opportunity and they have taken it to reassert themselves on the world stage.

Dan  08/13/2008 08:46 PM Report

very good points here and some have very good arguments except for one.

TABS: do you actually beleive the crap you spew out, saying Putin doesnt care about life and he is only in it for himself, or what Russia's intentions were.

Facts are simple, Georgia attacked in a Genocide fashion, Russia made an example out of them, as I would expect them to.

Saying to use force against Russia, I suggest you watch a movie called "Sum of all Fears", while it might be a movie, it also appears to me on what Sakashvillis intentions truly are.

as far as claims of Russia doing this to undermine China, do you people have a clue? or do you just make it up as you go along, You need to actually read up on facts first before making accusations that in the end only make you look like a dumbass.

moses  08/13/2008 08:37 PM Report

American Mercenary Captured By Russians

Paul Joseph Watson

Prison Planet

Monday, August 11, 2008

An American mercenary has been captured by Russian forces along with

a number of Georgian soldiers according to a report from the Russian

news website Izvestia, providing more evidence that the U.S. and NATO

are covertly supporting the Georgian army in a proxy war with Russia.

Photo: Georgian soldiers. U.S. soldiers recently conducted training

programs where they instructed Georgian soldiers how to deal with

unexploded ordinance as part of the Georgia Train and Equip

Program.

According to the report, the mercenary is an African-American who is

a NATO instructor and an ordinance specialist. He has now been

transferred to the Russian base of Vladikavkaz.

The story also backs up previous reports of dead black Americans

having been found in Tskhinvali, the capital city of South Ossetia.

U.S. soldiers recently conducted training programs where they

instructed Georgian soldiers how to deal with unexploded ordinance as

part of the Georgia Train and Equip Program.

Another report from the Russia daily Kommersant states that thousands

of mercenaries from numerous different countries are fighting on the

Georgian side and are being "commanded by the U.S. military

instructors. "

"The U.S. military instructors directly command and coordinate

actions of mercenaries without being involved in actual fighting, the

source specified. According to intelligence data, there are roughly

1,000 military instructors of the United States in Georgia," states

the report.

"Task force of Russia has annihilated a few groups of mercenaries.

Some of mercenaries have been captured, and investigators are working

with them, the source said."

The president of South Ossetia claims mercenaries took part in

Georgia's offensive against the breakaway republic, according to

Russia's RIA news agency.

In a related development, Russia FSB has detained 10 Georgian

intelligence service officers who were allegedly preparing terrorist

attacks inside Russia.

"We have detained 10 agents of the Georgian special services who were

spying on military facilities and preparing terrorist attacks,

including on Russian territory," Alexander Bortnikov said at a

meeting with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Russia has today launched new forays into Georgia itself even after

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili signed a cease-fire pledge.

Russia claims that Georgia has not honored the cease-fire and

continues to attack Russian positions.

Did U.S., Israel Provocateur S. Ossetia Conflict? Does the Sun Come

Up in the Morning?

Kurt Nimmo

Infowars

August 9, 2008

Dead civilians in South Ossetia. But you will not hear much about it

on CNN or Faux News. Because they are too busy reporting ad nauseam

about the extramarital shenanigans of CFR darling John Edwards.

In order to find out what's really going on in Georgia, you have to

read the international press on the internet. Bush, McCain, and Obama

may cast blame on Russia, but reading the international press you get

a different perspective.

Soldiers from the Ukraine, the United States, Georgia and Azerbaijan

partake in "Peace Shield 2005" on the Crimean peninsula in southern

Ukraine.

Russia accuses U.S. of orchestrating conflict

"Russian officials believe that it was the USA that orchestrated the

current conflict. The chairman of the State Duma Committee for

Security, Vladimir Vasilyev, believes that the current conflict is

South Ossetia is very reminiscent to the wars in Iraq and Kosovo,"

reports Pravda, the Russian newspaper.

Recall the CIA admitting it "helped to train the Kosovo Liberation

Army before Nato's bombing of Yugoslavia," according to The Sunday

Times. The KLA is a perfect outfit for the CIA. "Known for its

extensive links to Albanian and European crime syndicates, the KLA

was supported from the outset in the mid-1990s by the CIA and

Germany's intelligence agency, the Bundes Nachrichten Dienst (BND).

In the course of the 1999 war, the KLA was supported directly by

NATO," writes Michel Chossudovsky. "The KLA had extensive links to Al

Qaeda, which was also involved in military training. Mujahideen

mercenaries from a number of countries integrated the ranks of the

KLA, which was involved in terrorist activities as well as political

assassinations. " Of course, "links to Al Qaeda" translate into links

to the CIA.

"The things that were happening in Kosovo, the things that were

happening in Iraq – we are now following the same path. The further

the situation unfolds, the more the world will understand that

Georgia would never be able to do all this without America. South

Ossetian defense officials used to make statements about imminent

aggression from Georgia, but the latter denied everything, whereas

the US Department of State released no comments on the matter. In

essence, they have prepared the force, which destroys everything in

South Ossetia, attacks civilians and hospitals. They are responsible

for this. The world community will learn about it," Vasilyev told

Pravda.

Indeed, the world will learn about it, but not by way of America's

corporate media, more interested in the entirely meaningless baby-

making of Clay Aiken and Jaymes Foster. Bread and circuses shall

suffice in America.

U.S. loads up Georgia with weapons to fight "al-Qaeda"

The Federation of American Scientists website reveals that Georgia

is the most recent recipient of U.S. weapons and aid, receiving 10 UH-

1H Huey helicopters (four for spare parts only) and $64 million in

military aid and training to fight Arab soldiers with alleged ties to

Al Qaeda that have been participating in the Chechen war and are now

taking refuge in the Pankisi Gorge region in northern Georgia. Like

many of the recent aid recipients, claims that Georgia has become an

al Qaeda sanctuary are dubious at best.

"The rapid increase in US strategic influence in the Caucasus has

alarmed Russian policy planners. Moscow is keen to take steps to

shore up its eroding position in the region. However, Russian

officials have limited options with which to counter US moves while

at the same time maintaining cordial relations with Washington,"

Eurasia.net reported on April 8, 2002. "The most prominent US moves

in the Caucasus are the decision to dispatch military advisers to

Georgia and a March 29 State Department announcement on the lifting

of an arms embargo imposed on Armenia and Azerbaijan. Both actions

have the potential to tilt the military establishments of all three

Caucasus nations away from Russia and towards NATO."

Imagine Canada decided to enter a military and diplomatic alliance

with Russia and Canada began arming itself to the teeth with Russian

weapons and training with Russian military advisers. Can you guess

what the reaction of Bush and the neocons would be?

It doesn't take much imagination.

The Rose Revolution was not a simple uprising but was aided by the

CIA and Ambassador Richard Miles

CIA engineered Georgia's Rose Revolution

Of course, this al-Qaeda presence is not so dubious when one

considers the well documented fact the supposed Islamic terror group

is a CIA contrivance. As well, this absurd concern for al-Qaeda's

presence under Georgian beds helped make possible Georgia's so-called

Rose Revolution. "The Rose Revolution was not a simple uprising but

was aided by the CIA and Ambassador Richard Miles (think Serbia).

From early 2002 onwards the CIA had been operating in Georgia,

supposedly to combat Al Qaeda," explains researcher James Schneider.

It appears the CIA has worked behind the scenes for quite a while in

Georgia. Back in 1993, for instance, CIA agent Fred Woodruff was

assassinated by unknown assailants outside of Tbilisi. "Spokesmen for

the State Department and the C.I.A. declined to confirm that Mr.

Woodruff was working for the intelligence agency. But high-ranking

Administration officials said he was, adding that he was not spying

on Georgian officials but was training Mr. [Eduard\ Shevardnadze' s

security forces," the New York Times reported at the time. So tight

was the CIA with the former president of Georgia, they engineered

the "bloodless" Rose Revolution and pitched him out on his ear.

In the wake of Georgia's much vaunted — by the U.S. corporate media —

"revolution, " the installed government of autocrat Mikheil

Saakashvilli wasted little time imposing "democracy" neocon-style,

resulting in violent suppression of opposition political

rallies. "Georgia was rocked by opposition rallies for six days last

November as protesters occupied central Tbilisi demanding

Saakashvili' s resignation over allegations of corruption and

increasing authoritarianism, " reported RIA Novosti. "The Georgian

leader responded by sending in riot police to crack down on

protesters on November 7. Over 500 people were injured according to

Human Rights Watch as police used rubber bullets, tear gas and water

cannons to break up the demonstrations. " In addition, Saakashvilli' s

goons used "non-lethal" weapons of the sort developed by the Pentagon

(see video).

U.S. military holds "exercises" in Georgia immediately prior to

conflict

Last month, Aljazeera reported that "a total of around 1,650 soldiers

form the US, Georgia and several other East European countries, have

begun exercises on the formerly Russian-controlled Vaziani base, the

Georgian defense ministry said."

NowPublic reported on July 17:

US officials insist the long-planned wargames have nothing to do with

the recent dispute between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway

Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But they give

Washington a chance to support pro-west Tbilisi at a critical time.

If you believe this, I have a bridge for sale.

In fact, these "long-planned wargames" were so important the State

Department packed up and shipped off Condi Rice to Georgia. Her

arrival was nicely timed to coincide with "a deadly firefight between

Georgian troops and separatists in a Russian-backed breakaway

region…. Ahead of Rice's arrival, a senior State Department official

who did not want to be identified told reporters that unchecked

conflict in the region could lead to catastrophe. The official also

said Moscow should realize its Soviet empire is gone."

Catastrophe, indeed, although Russia's response to Georgia's invasion

of South Ossetia demonstrated Russia's resolve to reclaim its

supposedly evaporated empire.

Israel gets in on the act

Let's not forget America's junior partner in chaos and mass murder,

Israel. "In addition to the spy drones, Israel has also been

supplying Georgia with infantry weapons and electronics for artillery

systems, and has helped upgrade Soviet-designed Su-25 ground attack

jets assembled in Georgia, according to Koba Liklikadze, an

independent military expert based in Tbilisi. Former Israeli generals

also serve as advisers to the Georgian military," reports the

International Herald Tribune.

No wonder the horrific photos emerging from South Ossetia have that

Lebanon invasion look about them. Israel has over fifty years of

experience in invading small countries and has consistently

specialized in murdering and tormenting civilians.

Blind eyes all around

As Lavrov explains it, the "Georgian administration has found the use

to its arms, which they have been purchasing during the recent

several years… We have repeatedly warned that the international

community should not turn a blind eye on massive purchases of

offensive arms, in which the Georgian administration has been

involved during the recent two years."

Unfortunately, the international community will likely "turn a blind

eye" to the U.S. and Israel arming, training, and obviously

orchestrating the current conflict, same as they by and large turned

a blind eye to Israel's criminal invasion of Lebanon back in 2005 and

the U.S. invasion and ongoing occupation of Iraq. In regard to the

latter, the "international community" — indeed, the whole of the

American people — are so disorganized and demoralized they cannot

address the simple fact the neocons lied a nation into war. Nixon was

bounced for far less.

It looks like Russia will be obliged to deal with Georgia's treachery

on its own. Regrettably, Russia's response will entail even more

murder of innocents and wholesale destruction, as this is how

government historically deals with threats – real, imagined, or

provocateured.

9/11 Chronicles Part One: Truth Rising

Get the DVD and make copies or watch the high quality streaming and

download version online at Prison Planet.tv. Click here to read more

about the film and view sample trailers.

moses  08/13/2008 08:36 PM Report

Pure CFR Propaganda.

What about the PINAC Documents and Zbiniev Brezinki?? These NUT CASES WANT TO START A WAR WITH RUSSIA. The news isn't telling us that The Georgians attacked Oseitta, full of Russian citizens, or that american mercernaries and the Moussad are ther by the thousands, and that the Fool Us elitists want to surround russia with missiles and take control of the oil..

Echo5November  08/13/2008 04:29 PM Report

Fair enough....I was talking about actual boots on the ground. More sword and less pen talk could possibly have the Russians consider returning to the status quo. The "billions" we spent on the Georgians did not mount to much considering the fight they put up.

Arvind  08/13/2008 04:15 PM Report

Tabs' comment is absolutley spot on. Russian attack on Georgia was a message to China than to anybody else. It showed complete comtempt towards China and the Olympics. I am sure early departure of Putin from Olympics was encouraged by Chinese who must be spitting fire.

Re Echo5November  08/13/2008 02:18 PM Report

The U.S. government gives Georgia millions of dollars in military support including weapons and training, and has done so since 1992.

Echo5November  08/13/2008 01:34 PM Report

As much as both sides (Georgians/Russians) were wrong with their decesions, we as Americans have no say real say in this matter. We attacked Iraq, based on perceived "threats" to our own national security, with no real care to what others said. Why should the Russians listen to us? In addition it is quite shamefull that the Georgians came to help us in Iraq, and we have done nothing to return the favor.

Edward  08/13/2008 10:08 AM Report

Charlie Rose's friend Russian Ambassador Churkin flat out lied to his face last night as we can see this morning by the Russians ignoring a cease fire and continuing its invasion and occupation of Georgia - rolling the tanks closer and closer to the capital. What a sad sight. Shame on those rationalizing this brutality.

Olof  08/13/2008 04:17 AM Report

I must agree that the analysis seems one-sided. Surely Russia deserves criticism, but it seems clear now that it was Georgia who initially broke an international treaty and moved their troops into a territory that Russia in the same treaty had guaranteed would be free from Georgian troops/control. Russia’s response might be exaggerated, but it was far from unpredictable. USA, UK, most countries would have acted in a similar fashion had they been the signatories of a similar agreement. Georgias governments actions seem dangerous, impulsive and clearly deserving some criticism as well.

On a realpolitikal map, Georgias move was more or less an open attack on Russia, and it seems to be exactly the fear of such rash actions that lead to many nations blocking its NATO-membership. I’m personally not very worried about future relations between Russia and the west, and certainly not about the security of the sovereign nations on Russia’s western border. I’m not saying that Medvedev was right in his actions, I’m saying that Saakashvili deserves a lot of criticism as well. He brought war upon his country and gained what? Advancing the case of Georgias NATO-membership? A very crude form of statesmanship.

Dragan Rakic  08/13/2008 04:04 AM Report

When USA speaks in the name of EU and "pro-western" governments, or "democracies", it means "American interests" and"American way of life", but except certain leders, the people of EU and Asia, or Africa do not support US politics and all those lies served to ordinary American citizen who do not even know who is who or what is what, and who stay in the totalignorance. Speaking about "the aggression"

Mr. Churkin is right. Vietnam, Afghanistan Irak x 2, Serbia under different excuses but with the same aims, imposing the NWO. Read David Icke, Dr. John Coleman, Noami Klein and many others who denounce that sort of "democracy". Read this

PEACE COMMITTEE OF GEORGIA 0182. Apt. 2, quarter 8, house 10, massif 3, Tbilisi, Georgia Tel: ++ 995 93 761363 Fax/Tel: ++ 995 32 731516 E-mail: pc_of_georgia@yahoo.com

Declaration of the Georgian Peace Committee

Once more Georgia was launched into a situation of chaos and bloodshed. A new fratricidal war exploded with renewed strength on Georgian soil.

To our great disappointment, the alerts of the Georgian Peace Committee and of progressive personalities of Georgia on the pernicious character of the militarization of the country and on the danger of a pro-fascist and nationalist policy had no effect.

The authorities of Georgia once again organized a bloody war, feeling the support of some western countries and of regional and international organizations. It will take decades to cleanse the shame poured by the current holders of the power over the Georgian people.

The Georgian army--armed and trained by U.S. instructors and using also U.S. armaments--subjected the city of Tskhinvali to a barbaric destruction. The bombings killed Ossetian civilians, our brothers and sisters, children, women and elderly people. Over 2,000 inhabitants of Tskhinvali and of its surroundings died.

Hundreds of civilians of Georgian nationality also died, both in the conflict zone as well as on the entire territory of Georgia.

The Georgian Peace Committee expresses its deep condolences to the relatives and friends of those who have perished.

The entire responsibility for this fratricidal war, for thousands of children, women and elderly dead people, for the inhabitants of South Ossetia and of Georgia falls exclusively on the current President, on the Parliament and on the Government of Georgia. The irresponsibility and the adventurism of the Saakashvili regime have no limits. The President of Georgia and his team, undoubtedly, are criminals and must be held responsible.

The Georgian Peace Committee, together with all the progressive parties and social movements of Georgia, will struggle to assure that the organizers of this monstrous genocide have a severe and legitimate punishment.

The Georgian Peace Committee declares and asks broad public opinion not to identify the current Georgian leadership with the people of Georgia, with the Georgian nation, and appeals to all to support the Georgian people in the struggle against the criminal regime of Saakashvili.

We appeal to all the political forces of Georgia, the social movements and the people of Georgia to unite in order to free the country from the Russian-phobic and pro-fascist anti popular regime of Saakashvili!

The Georgian Peace Committee Tbilisi, Aug. 11, 2008

Christopher  08/12/2008 10:57 PM Report

By the way, Stephen Sestanovich really does not "get it". Russia taking over an independaent country has tremendous implications, yet there is no urgency in his comments. I am surprised that this event is not getting the intention it deserves. When the US invaded Iraq, you could not shut the world up (and the world was right), but when Russia knockes off a neighbor, Stephen Sestanovich treads lightly and of all people, Bob Kagan, a republican who can really get hysterical about the "threat" of third world countries in the middle east, is the one actually correctly assessing the situation and the implications of the Russian aggression.

Alice  08/12/2008 10:49 PM Report

Once again Charlie is providing a platform for Neocons who are hell bent on demonizing Russia. Why? Because Russia hasn't been playing ball with additional Iran sanctions. These scum who have invaded Cheney's office and the Defense dept. aren't happy with the less-hawkish policies of Bush/Condi team since the Baker report at the end of 2006. The same warmongers are dead set against an Obama election and keep pimping Clinton stories to get McCain elected.

Philip Jacob  08/12/2008 07:40 PM Report

How could we tell the Russian government to act as we say and not as we do? The Bush administration did invade sovereign countries against international will too!

Lauren Donnellan  08/12/2008 07:01 PM Report

To those critical of the U.S. posture and rhetoric: While I'm no supporter of the current administration, I think you should all ask yourselves,

"Do you REALLY think that Russia's/Putin's aim is to support the democratic voice of these so-called 'breakaway' regions?"

Regardless of America's role, or NATO's failures, any clear-eyed analysis must recognize that the democratic ambitions of the people involved will NEVER be furthered by Russian intercession. Russian aggression cannot be reasonably justified by any amount of America bashing, no matter how deserved.

- Lauren D.

Christopher  08/12/2008 06:41 PM Report

Bob is completely right about Russia's intentions. Ukraine should be part of NATO and NATO should send troops there... The EU has to wake up, this affects them directly.... Unlike his irrelevant Middle East analysis of past shows, Bob's feeling of "urgency" in this mateer is relevant and for once, it isn't "right wing hysteria". This is not Iran funding a few terrorists, this is Russia taking over a country.