Charlie Rose

soul_la_ti_do  11/16/2008 02:31 AM Report

I really wish this kind of change had come when I was in school. I hope many students will see benefit from this in DC. If successful, nationwide.

Grant Hawkins  10/29/2008 05:49 PM Report

I think it's important to realize that in discussing education she minimizes the impact of home life, family issues, etc., her job is to teach, not to improve the students home life and family issues. Thus, the focus of her efforts is on the teaching aspect of education, and a significant improvement in standardized tests is an accurate reflection of good teaching. Although standardized tests and good teachers are not the whole of education, they are the part she concerns herself with and frankly she's done a great job of it.

Justin  10/11/2008 11:31 PM Report

Any teacher who takes credit for the success of their students on standardized tests has an ego that is not suited for being a teacher....nor a chancellor. TFA mission's statement is that "One day,every child will have the opportunity to receive an excellent education." Opportunity. It doesn't say anything about all children scoring in the 90th percentiles on standardized tests. There is that little thing called a bell curve that education reformers love to ignore for the "perfect world" scenario of no child being left behind. Half of any group is, by definition, below average.

The reality is that the teacher can lead the horses to water and after that, it is up to the students' familial support, work ethic and intellectual ability. The majority of certified teachers who enter the profession have the competence to deliver content to a room full of 25 kids. If, however, 10 of the 25 argue and insult each other and the teacher every day, 20 out of the 25 never do their homework, and 18 of 25 doodle, sleep, or do anything else they want other than listen to the teacher, isn't that really their problem?

The tragedy is the 7 or 8 out of 25 kids in every city school who work hard and have their education interrupted by 15 other knuckleheads on a daily basis. Create policies that do right by those kids.

tim a  09/25/2008 12:14 PM Report

Frankly, like Anonymous below, this interview infuriates me. She, for whatever reason, is under the impression that the teachers are to be blamed for the bad education the American kids are getting, without citing one incident, or factual evidence, that speaks to her claim. No doubt there are inadequate teachers whose teaching may very well make or break their students’ future career path, but to insinuate current situation stems mostly from having or hiring bad teachers, not to mention this interviewee’s frustration over her inability to fire bad teachers solely because of “rules and regulations,” seems disingenuous and, to be honest, sounds like a politician looking to pave his/her own career path.

Look, I’ve been teaching students both in and out of the States. One thing I can tell you is that a student’s performance, more than anything, depends mostly on the family. I’ve been tracking performances of both good and below average students. More often than not, students performing well have the support of their families, whereas the other side often lacks it. If anything, the parents are the ones who have to stay behind their children and expect and encourage them to do well, motivate them. It’s as easy and simple as asking whether they had done the homework or not, or setting a schedule by which they can live. Just letting them know there are people out there who care and expect the best of them is, more often than not, enough to encourage these students to push little further.

Of course, this does not mean the teachers do not have a role to play. Yes, they do, and it’s an immense one. But it’s only possible when that basic foundation is firmly established. No amount of good teachers will solve the current situation if parents believe that a good education stops at school.

Anonymous  09/20/2008 09:52 AM Report

New teachers are constantly comming in...guess why they can't stay. They are poorly supported and catch the blame for every problem, even if they had nothing to do with it. Lawsuits and poor support for the teacher are everywhere.

This video irritates me and is another case of an administrator keeping their job at the expense of the teachers (who are easy to blame). There is a lack of any accountability on the part of the rest of the community (especially the student and their families).

This administrator's postition is just another political job. It is easy for her to make a name for herself by the excitement generated when she destroys careers and damages a system that ultimately she won't fix. These changes are just more of the same.

They are experiments on our students. It's easy to do this and the pattern is all around the country. Cut the support for the teachers, punish them, rearrange the resources and when there is nothing for the teachers to work with, blame them. Quick popularity generators that cheat the town and establish the name for someone who really doesn't care about a district that they will leave soon anyway. They set back the schools by creating a climate of 'blame the teacher' becuase nobody wants responsibility for the problems. This is a pattern that is all over the country. Same old, same old.

What if we gave our teachers the resources and support they need? Most of the money goes to administrators while teachers get very little, pay huge portions of their checks for high deductable (cheap) insurance, and have retirements that (even when they sound good) only last a few years into their old age. One teacher that I know is retiring with one of the 'best' teaching packages and only has 10 years worth of money comming. I am a teacher and have been limited to 300 photocopies for 150+ students per month. I am thinking about getting a higher paying job somewhere else, not because I want to but becuase I CAN'T AFFORD TO TEACH ANYMORE. Replace me with some greenhorn college student. Don't worry, therre will be more to follow. You can do great things when you have an never-ending flow of expendable labor. A teacher told me that Home Depot is hiring and that they pay more than he is getting right now with his advanced degrees. They also don't challenge your credentials everry year because they 'lost' their paperwork as they have with someone I know who was getting ready to retire. They did it every year for the past 11 years that I have known what they were going through. Yeah...it's the teacher's fault.

Look at this admiinistrator's golden paycheck and then look at what she is ACTUALLY DOING for the students. It looks good to fire people, but then you get new people who are even LESS qualified. I bet a lot of the best teachers quit the next opportunity they got. Where the heck is their union?

G. Ingram  09/16/2008 02:56 AM Report

I would give the proverbial eye tooth to teach for Michelle Rhee!

To require certain basic levels of knowledge and competency in students is not, as one comment suggests, setting up a "factory system of education." Far from it. It is requiring that schools do what they are supposed to do---teach the basic skills deemed necessary for literacy and success in our society. It is the "factory system" Ms. Rhee opposes with her determination to reward teacher achievement and review tenure in the consistent absence of achievement, for instance. Any successful teacher knows teaching requires every personal and professional gift a teacher has, exercised in often unorthodox ways. Good teachers love the process and the achievements of students. Good teachers change their methods every day, based on experience. But good teachers---by definition---teach. No assembly lines there.

Half the battle in teaching is leading the student to believe he can learn. To win this battle teachers must know and empathize with their students as fellow human beings. They must do all in their power to get parental backing, and that lacking, they must do all in their power to lead every child to see his own potential, to know the teacher has his or her back if he fails at first. Good teachers are goal-oriented. And because it is their job, their goal is student learning---however that can be achieved.

And to suggest that there are no black parents in the District who share Ms. Rhee's Korean ambitions for their children insults this white teacher's intelligence. It is a false justification for assuming failure. If teachers don't believe their students can learn, I assure you those students won't learn. If a nation expects their schools to fail, they will fail.

Clearly, Ms. Rhee expects success. My good wishes are with her. It's been a long time since I've heard such sanity and clarity from an educator. It's almost as if Ms. Rhee believes schools can do what they were established to do!

How novel! And how hopeful.

This was a terrific interview.

innercityteacher  08/27/2008 04:15 PM Report

To Jane on Wednesday, Aug 27 at 11:33 AM

If it's such a simple job, why don't you become a teacher?

For that matter why do we have a national teacher crisis?

Walk one day in the shoes of an inner city teacher Jane, and your entire attitude will change.

That is, if you think you can hack it.

Personally, I'm banking that you would do more whining and complaining than anyone.

I'd give you one week.

Jane  08/27/2008 11:33 AM Report

Any "teacher" who blames society, struggling communities, and a "bad home life" for the lack of motivation in our schools is a lazy teacher, period. Part of your job is to motivate and inspire, IN SPITE of what might be happening oustide of the school. I would ask "lisa" who else is to blame other than teachers for poor results? There are thousands of teachers who are wildly successful despite discouraging external factors, and so I do not accept the conclusion that society is to blame. Of course circumstances can make things more difficult, but when teachers pander to these circumstances, when you tell the pregnant teen it's "okay" that she did not complete her homework because she was sick, you are enabling the cycle of poverty to continue.

Teachers, by far, have the most difficult yet important job in society, and it's just not okay to be mediocre anymore; it's not. It's not okay to blame single-parents for working 2 jobs or inner-city violence for a child's inability to read. Those teachers who want to do so, should just retire now, because it's unacceptable. Every child can learn.

Neil MacCallister  08/24/2008 09:29 AM Report

Update: School and work can be integrated! See NYTimes (7/21, p.A12) article on Berea College, or that school's wikipedia entry. Lisa (below) notes our need to eradicate "learned helplessness". There is no better way than to show those kids what their hands can do! Why do Mexican nationals earn 60K here for spreading stucco on our buildings? ..because our kids don't know how! Ms. Rhee and Berea President Larry Shinn should meet!

Des Robinson  08/06/2008 02:52 AM Report

After twice listening intently to Ms. Rhee's interview and watching her mannerisms, I'm left with the nagging suspicion that she is less interested in the quality of education than she is with the sound of her own voice.

Martina  07/29/2008 11:18 PM Report

I have stopped watching the show because of Charlie's OBVIOUS bias and role in toppling Hillary Clinton. I tuned in tonight and I see that the Obama fan club is still meeting! What a dream world you guys are in. You have no idea what the real America thinks or plans to do. You are all so besotted with yourselves that you actually believe the misrepresentations that you peddle and persona that you have created in Obama.

And what pearls of wisdom did your guests provide? It was mostly drooling over Obama, as always. My favorite was "Obama for some reason" does not speak progammatically. For some reason? Here is the reason: He HAS NOTHING. He is an emperor without clothing and the MSM has placed him on the throne. When asked about VP possibilities, not one mention of Hillary Clinton. Misogyny continues, albeit in a more passive form.

Unfortuntely, Charlie, on the topic of the election, you guys have nothing. You succeeded in foisting an inferior candidate on the DNC and he will lose in November because you and the pundit community underestimate the American public's ability to think for itself.

Tom Hendry  07/21/2008 07:28 AM Report

Society is to blame for the state our (USA, UK) schools are in and the negative attitudes of the students in those schools.

In this day and age you would expect the way we live our lives, which includes our morals and ethics, to be at the highest level. In fact we are going backwards.

Our society has a more liberal approach to drugs which lead to apathy, laziness, non-conformist attitudes and last but not least, violence.

We stand by and watch as disengaged/feral kids grow up and become disengaged/feral parents who bring up disengaged/feral kids.

Our education systems train teachers to teach subjects but not how to teach students how to learn.

Our politicians want ticks in boxes and if that means lowering education standards to get them so be it.

Yes there are parents, teachers, politicians out there making a difference. But they need us behind them to make some fundamental changes.

We are all a part of our society and we need to shout loud because if we don't the future is not looking too good.

Http://school-teacher-student-motivation-resources-courses.com

lisa  07/19/2008 11:27 AM Report

I invite Michelle Rhee to walk in the shoes of an inner city, high school teacher. Her two short teaching years in an elementary school do not qualify her to understand the depth of the problems involved.

We are most certainly in a crisis in this country. Still, we refuse to address the underlying causes.

Teachers are not afraid of accountability-at least this teacher is not. What we are is extremely frustrated with the so called "Reforms" that do nothing to address the real issues.

A public school is a microcosm of society. When schools are failing, chances are that the communities around them are failing.

If you stepped for one second into an inner city high school you would see evidence of a decline in self motivation, determination and responsibility. You would see an incredible "learned helplessnesses" that has been internalized for years.

Until we address the factors that are influencing these behaviors, we will never succeed.

When the smoke clears, and we are done blaming teachers, perhaps then we will be able to address the real reforms necessary to improve education. Until then, we can continue to spin our wheels and pretend that there is no elephant in the room. Michelle Rhee makes people feel good because, she eases their fears and assures them that there is no real problem - just change the teachers.

There is a very big problem, and until we admit to it, we are doomed to go down the same path over and over again.

bastet  07/19/2008 07:39 AM Report

Unfortunately, government does not have the ability to run households and it is limited in its ability to hold parents and guardians responsible for the discipline of, their children. With that said, it is society, you and I that are responsible. We are afraid to check students we see out of hand. We parents fight for our kids when we KNOW they are wrong, we parents act as if we KNOW more than the faculty and staff does about their job. We no longer want the type of boundaries we grew up with for our children in their schools; our kids must be "free". Free to go and come, free to wear what they want, free to say what they want, when they want, how they want. If the school chooses to discipline our kids we fly to the school and argue that our child should not have to endure the punishment...and why...because we don't want to take the time off from work to stay home with them. We don't read with our kids, do homework with our kids, introduce academics to our kids...it's all the schools responsibility. Bottom line is the school, the teachers are there to teach, not raise your kids! DC public schools, some have 70% of the student population scoring under proficiency in reading and math! 70% people! Hello, almost 3/4 of the students are failing. How many will not be able to function as a citizen who contributes to society in the coming years that you will retire in. Good teachers, really good young and vibrant teachers, quit after a few years and go private. I know several! The reasons they give are the exact reasons that Rhee speaks about in this interview. All I can say is ...most of you here on this comment blog... think about what you are doing to help improve the DCPS system. Are you ragging bout Rhees past associations? Are you crying because she is calling you, a teacher, to be accountable as all others are held accountable in their jobs-measuring the outputs? Are you active, in the PTA or some other organization at the schools? Are you supportive or are you just complaining at every bump in the road? Do you think schools should be equal and if then why don't you send your kids to DC public schools and then become part of the progress? All I'm saying is, lots of people here seem to be part of the problem, a problem that has plagued DC for longer than I've been a citizen of it, and most that really could make a difference don't have their children in the system. Remember people, if you aren't part of the solution, more than likely, you're part of the problem. Kudos to Rhee. You go girl! I believe in your plans and your abilities! Believe it or not... more people are with you than against you!

sall  07/19/2008 03:53 AM Report

Outstanding interview. Charlie Rose is probably the worst interviewer there is, but on this one, he actually did well. He wasn't cutting off his guest, saying "right, right, right, right, right", finishing half of the guests answers for them and wasting time laughing with his old buddies. Maybe it's an indication that he doesn't know "everything" about this subject. The idea that this interview got the same rating from viewers as the Wendy Kopp/Bob Wise is absurd. Despite all of the lip service, education is not a priority in this country. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.

Jeff T.   07/17/2008 10:55 PM Report

A very interesting interview, but sadly Ms Rhee, like numerous reformers before her, is still missing the most basic component of what are the root causes of our failing schools. Are there bad teachers out there? Of course there are, and throughout the history of education there always were bad teachers out there and there will always be a number of bad teachers out there. However, what Ms Rhee never addresses is the “bad students” that are also out there. Students come into schools today with untold amounts of baggage and distractions. One of the last things these students are concerned with is how they can improve as learners when they walk into a classroom. These students could care less about getting that homework done so that they can do well on the next test. If anything there is a movement within the general student population to NOT do well in school so as not to appear like a “schoolboy or girl”. The majority of the students out there just do not care about there education and behind them are either absentee parents or parents who have opted out of raising their children and have chosen to treat their child as a friend who can do no wrong and therefore if they are failing it must be the school’s fault. The question Ms. Rhee and countless others before her are still asking is “why can’t Johnny read?” The question for this generation of students is “why doesn’t Johnny want to learn to read?” Until we make this fundamental shift in the question we are asking about our failing schools we will always be dancing around the real answer. This will only lead to more “reforms of the month” and sorry Ms. Rhee but in the end this is all you are really offering right now, it’s just in the guise of let’s blame the teachers.

Rudolph   07/17/2008 10:22 PM Report

D.C. public school students made significant achievement gains during the past academic year, according to preliminary test data released yesterday.

To Des Robinson. Read the above. Its not the "sound of her voice" that makes her effectiive. It is her commitment and dedication and as she herself says a fantastic Mayor........The results speak for themselvs

Charlie  07/17/2008 06:07 PM Report

Ms. Rhee is so correct (and fortunately not politically correct) on so many issues. The complaints that teachers are forced into dealing with the "fad of the month, the new program of the month", etc. is the fault of the teachers themselves. Children are not learning despite all of the new age thinking in education. The basics in education have been tossed by the wayside. There is a bottom line that needs to be recognized; if a child can not read, write, perform math calculations at 12th grade level upon graduation from high school, that child has little chance of success as an adult. I see too many who have a diploma, yet have not earned it. They've been given a false sense of accomplishment. I agree that teachers should be paid more - IF, NOT BEFORE they have proven themselves. There is not an occupation I know of that gives someone rewards before they've earned them. Teaching should be no different. If you think you are an excellent teacher, demonstrate it. Self-esteem will not get a child a career. Striving to only make our children happy and feel good about themselves will carry them through only until the day after graduation and no further.

DCPS Parent  07/17/2008 02:48 PM Report

Sadly, her reforms are not being felt at the local school level. She talks a good game but sadly isn't supplying the most basic thing she goes on and on about, which are good teachers. And new teachers receive no support or true mentoring from the system. They either sink or swim of their own accord. It's too bad cause it is a small enough systems that is she wanted to change it she could. We just don't see it at the local level. I'm tired of her empty rhetoric. We have never ever seen her face in our school. Come one there are just over 100 schools. Why hasn't she shown her face?

Gil Cass  07/17/2008 08:56 AM Report

rhee is the right person in the right job - bright; confident. yet, she, by her own admission, is not the alpha hero of this story. that designation goes, of course, to adrian fenty, the mayor. ideologues can squabble forever about the limits of "accountability" or the impact of salaries on performance. fenty and rhee are bringing ideology to life. schools, especially urban schools, are failing. shall we bicker or act? rhee begins and ends in the right place, too - with teacher excellence.

Larry Arsenault  07/16/2008 11:38 PM Report

As a former teacher at inner city schools, I found Ms Rhee's remarks lacking in several areas. First off, my biases are against national testing as a means of judging schools not becuase they don't give us good information, but because that information is used exactly to the wrong purpose. A school that underperforms is given less funding when it should be given more funding and a better administration. Also, national testing focuses on Math and English - only. Schools frantic to bring up test scores subject the kids to hours of English and Math only. No civics or music or art or anthing that might help the student to actually learn to "think." We are training these kids to be good little cubicle workers who can follow direcitons but not think for themselves and guess what? The kids are rebelling against it.

I taught middle school English in a San Jose, Califonria "Community Day School" (where public schools dump problem kids.) and at what was described to me as "the worst school in Oakland, California.

The reality Ms Rhee talks of might as well be from a different planet than the kids of these schools. These kids will tell you to go fuck yourself when you tell them to take their hoods down. They will take a test, make a paper airplane out of it and throw it out the window. When you try to tell them that they need to pass the test to move to the next grade, they look you straight in the eye and say they will be passed anyway and they will.

I know it is easy and basic to blame the teachers for our underachieving students. But poor teachers are not the reason students are coming out of high school at a 7th grade level - if that.

Please think this over. 2 +2 still equals the same 4 it did 50, 100, 1,000 years ago. In English, a sentence still must contain a subject and a verb as it has had to do before Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet. So why can't students learn the very basics of education today? Are our teachers worse than they were a hundred years ago? No.

I see 3 main causes for whatever ailments our education process is supposedly enduring.

1. All repsonsibility for the education of a student is placed on the teacher when it should be placed on the student first, the teacher second, the administration of the school third and the District fourth. You can lead a student to education, but you can not make him or her learn. Which leads to my second basic reason.

2. Just as not all atheletes are stars, not all teachers are going to be stars. In the inner city schools I taught, the students ran the school. If they didn't like the way you taught, or if they received a bad grade they would say you are a bad teacher. It became THE excuse not to pay attention, not to do homework, to play with their Gameboys and cellphones. Better (for them) they could threaten to tell the Principal or the Assistant Principal that you weren't a good teacher - unless you happen to show a movie that day or throw a pizza party - soon.

3. What progressive teachers were realizing in Oakland was that unless we could get the parents involved, there wasn't much hope. Understand that in the inner city, it's a different reality, Dad might be in jail. Mom might be out hooking in the streets to pay for her habit. Kids write essays about pimping their girlfriends and selling drugs for their dad and how they want to "messup" a Sureos so they can get their dots and be a member of the Norteos, just like their dad. In these neighborhoods you don't hold bake sales to buy new uniforms for the kids. My sister, who also was a teacher in Louisville, Kentucky, said they had laws that held the parents responsible if their kids were truant or caused certain problems and daamge at the schools. When parents had to pay fines or be faced with community service or even jail time, they quickly became interested in their children's education.

There are several other problems with education. Districts and supervisory boards seem to get bigger every year and pay themselves very well while adding very little to the budgets of the schools. Every year it seems another publisher comes up with a new "system" to better educate the kids. These systems are thought up by peole who likely have never been in a classroom. they are designed to grab the attention of the people who will pay for them. They consist of books, tapes, disks, pictures, charts, etc etc etc and are very expensive. They take a lot of time for the teacher to learn and by the end of the year the kids have torn out page numbers, drawn pictures of various sexual interactions with directions to the pictures in the front cover, torn out pages to make paper airplanes or spitballs and the school buys more - at great expense because the kids aren't held responsible for anything and they know how to use that.

So I can understand everyone's need to blame the teacher for all our educational woes because education handles a lot of money and is a great political football. Problem? It's the Jews! The Terrorists! The Teachers! One word answers solve everything, don't they?

Roy Fassel  07/16/2008 10:16 PM Report

The interview with Michele Rhee might have been one of the more important conversations of the year for Charlie. The issue is/was that the DC school system has failed its children for decades. Many decades. Why? Everyone knows why. This country’s educational system is the only system still operating under the control model of the old Soviet Union. That model will always fail. DC is almost 100% Democratic. The teacher’s union is the primary power within the Democratic Party. The Washington DC school district is the result of that kind of thinking. No one can suggest any other conclusion. Without competition and accountability, the school systems will continue to destroy the lives of many, many youngster to save the jobs of some teachers and adult staff, who are not equipped to teach or administer anything. Nothing can be more cruel than to place a child in a home-life setting and a school setting which almost dictates failure. That is evil. Capitalism is ruthless and cruel. However, nothing is more cruel and ruthless than to continue the mentality that ruled the DC school district for many decades. Destroying the lives of this many children the past many decades is evil. Its time for a change. Hats off to Rhee.

Kathy  07/16/2008 06:50 PM Report

Ms. Weingarten says that teacher's unions are so strong.... the reason? When I sign my contract every year to teach, I sign that I WILL pay union dues. No choice! Could this be the reason that teacher's unions appear to be so strong? Also, if I spoke up against the union, I would be blacklisted. I am very impressed with Michelle Rhee and hope that her outstanding ideas will catch on. I am a teacher of 20 years because I love teaching and care about children. Tolerating poor teachers (because the union protects them) or ineffective methods is the demise of our profession. Teachers who speak out against any accountability know they're not doing the best that can be done.

John  07/16/2008 05:21 PM Report

Ms Rhee was a refreshing take on what goals can be set when the interests of the students are placed first. The clip of Randi Weingarten was annoying. Mayor Bloomberg and the NY School Chancellor have improved scores and can be rightly proud. You have to learn math and english FIRST - and you better be darn good at them to get anywhere, so of course that is rightly the focus. What improvement in scores can Weingarten point to due to her efforts? None. She is for the paralysis of status quo. If it was handled her way there would be no improvement that NY could boast about.

John  07/16/2008 05:21 PM Report

Ms Rhee was a refreshing take on what goals can be set when the interests of the students are placed first. The clip of Randi Weingarten was annoying. Mayor Bloomberg and the NY School Chancellor have improved scores and can be rightly proud. You have to learn math and english FIRST - and you better be darn good at them to get anywhere, so of course that is rightly the focus. What improvement in scores can Weingarten point to due to her efforts? None. She is for the paralysis of status quo. If it was handled her way there would be no improvement that NY could boast about.

Andrew  07/16/2008 03:32 PM Report

To Linda Carptenter: Your statement that Michelle Rhee has never taught in an American classroom is puzzling. She spent three years teaching in Baltimore through Teach for America and was quite successful. Maybe you don't consider her work to be "teaching" because TFA members don't dish out big bucks to hear the gospel of Dr. Fred Jones as you repeatedly suggest?

Neil MacCallister  07/16/2008 02:43 PM Report

Commenter Arsenault used many words, but told much truth (..Did people see the 7/14 WSJ book review: 'Cop in the Hood'?) Why is it that the teacher's union can break the back of the CA governor's 2005 reform agenda, yet last night's guest (Amory Lovins) informs us that General Motors is unlikely to survive five more years? Wikipedia reports the purpose of education to be "Economic success in adult life" (..That means a job!) Carpenters, Steelworkers, Plumbers, Autoworkers, ..(even Newspaper!) Unions are falling to the wayside

in death throes, ..just like our children! Where is the disconnect? We put money into schools and prisons, ..why don't we let those kids learn a job?

Buck Ewing  07/16/2008 08:11 AM Report

Michelle Rhee's work is heroic. She fights gigantic inertia. Her purpose, clarity, and courage is a national treasure we must not squander.

Bob  07/16/2008 12:57 AM Report

Michelle Rhee is talking a lot of political nonsense. This is the tough talk a la Bush.

Education in Alberta, Canada, for example, is one of the strongest anywhere. It is at the top of the tables on international tests of achievement. It far outstrips the United States. But wait...they have strong unions....and, oh yeah, the do not have yearly statewide exams. But still they manage to outdo the US.

I have taught in the states and Canada and I can tell you that this tough talk is pandering. It panders to parents who do not read to their kids, to politicians who do not pay teachers enough, and to students who feel they are customers in the educational process.

Education in the United States is hampered by unions that are not strong enough, not because unions are too strong.

The political opportunist apparatus that we see wheeled out on Charlie Rose on a regular basis does nothing to further enlightened discourse on the subject.

Neil MacCallister  07/15/2008 10:47 PM Report

There is no shortage of teacher applicants at the present pay. Pay is not the issue. How, though, was Mr. Wallace's success attained? He let kids know he would meet after school, at an off-schoolgrounds restaurant, with interested students. The students who came prospered. The crucial element was not Mr. Wallace's being a "wonderful teacher" (though he surely is!) It was his decision to offer a meeting for students with an academic interest. The problem is not just "getting rid of unproductive teachers", but finding some way to remove the sand-bagging and disruptive non-students to an activity more suiting to their individual needs. After that, Mr. Wallace may be able to academically succeed right there on school grounds!

Teresa Lepeley   07/15/2008 09:26 PM Report

Charlie Rose, all your interviews are interesting and valuable, but your conversation with Michele Rhee was outstanding. In the Era of Knowledge and Information education quality is a subject every person is extremely concerned about. These days we are no longer discuss education, but quality in education. As a teacher and professor with decades of experience, I spent my professional life researching and searching for solutions to improve the quality of education, to the extent that I founded a global institute to train teachers in leadership to assess, manage resources, and improve education quality optimizing the students’ learning potential. I developed a comprehensive model and the basics are those that Michelle Rhee mentioned students need and ask her for: “We want good teachers”. I train teachers in quality for a simple reason: during the course of my undergraduate and graduate studies in education, the central focus was the subject matter. No scholar thought then or taught me, how to become a “student-centered quality teacher”. To be a good teacher was and is today, mostly intuitive. Michelle is right again on this side of the equation: teacher’s responsibility with commitment to do things right over and over - what she calls “accountability” - is the key. But let’s be realistic. Not all teachers appreciate commitment, or like teaching, to a large extent because “teaching is one of the hardest professions”. Unfortunately this is hardly acknowledged. How often does society proclaim that teaching is a most important job? … in spite of the fact that teachers are educating our children?! In reality for those of us who enjoy teaching and get so exited to see our students learn, grow, and become productive persons and citizens, the rewards are immense. Taking about rewards in the 21st century, yes, the efforts of quality teachers, that result in students gaining knowledge, experience, and wisdom must to be rewarded. Teachers are crucial. Consequently we, the people, and all educational policy makers, must be deeply aware that if we want to have social progress, and economic development with better opportunities for all students – and particularly for students in public education, as “the true equalizer”, we indeed make a favor to ineffective teachers when we facilitate their transition to find job security in other sectors where they can be more productive, and for sure, happier. In my experience, teachers that I advised to switch careers have appreciated my input forever. Invariably their career change allowed them to enjoy life and work much more. And it allowed children to be better educated. A double gain.

MP  07/15/2008 08:54 PM Report

And where are all those "Great Teachers" who don't have a family or other interests or needs going to come from? Other districts?

I've seen great young teachers leave teaching or leave poor districts because they are so malteated by administrators who are also underpaid (the worst of the lot) and under the gun.

And thank god for unions; otherwise those lousy administrators would totally run amok.

NCLB is a punishment model, which no more makes good teachers and administrators than it makes good students. It amounts to a lot of lofty b-s with no substance.

During these talks on education I keep hearing "should," "needs to be" and "must." I tell my students to give me a stop signal when they hear me say those words.

I agree that it should be easier to fire a few really bad teachers but it won't make much difference.

I do appreciate the positive energy of Ms. Rhee and the mayor.

Linda Carpenter  07/15/2008 07:39 PM Report

Once again, Charlie Rose, I invite you to meet and interview Dr Fred Jones. Dr Jones is an American treasure for teachers. I wish Ms Rhee all of the luck in the world but I could see her belief that if she has more money she will attract, as she put it "higher caliber' people to the profession. What an elitist statement and not surprising from someone who has never taught in an American classroom. We have incredible talent in our teaching profession- but we must train them to face the realities of managing and engaging 20-25 kids at the same time! That is what most teachers have no preparation for doing . Dr Fred Jones, Tools For Teaching , has advocates from around the nation, including our current assistant Secretary of Instruction, Ray Simon, who helped to change education in Arkansas. Fred Jones trained schools have raised achievement scores in schools K-12 . The new magnificent Academy 20 K-12 grade school just built in Colorada Springs was built with the idea that all of its teachers will have Fred Jones Discipline, Instruction and Motivation training.

Training teachers and administrators causes an incredible leap in achievement, teacher retention, behavior improvement and just plain learning that takes place. There are thousands of stories and people who will tell you this same thing. Education improvement comes from what happens in each classroom when the door is shut and the teacher is teaching. We must give teachers the training and support the need and all childen will be successfu, - inner city included!

Check out YOUTUBE search Mrs Garcia's Freedom Writers video to hear from real high school kids about how their teacher training with Fred Jones has caused so much improvement in grades and behavior that they call themselves Mrs Farcia's Freedom Writers. ( Granite Hills High School, Porterville, Ca. That is just one example! Education-world.com Fred Jones Archives is another place to learn more.

Neil MacCallister  07/15/2008 07:24 PM Report

P.s., President Lincoln only went to the 8th grade, am I right? Was he deprived?

Neil MacCallister  07/15/2008 07:18 PM Report

Forcing unwilling or disruptive students to be kept in class deprives an education to those students interested in academic learning. Let's allow the child that does not want to do schoolwork accept a job at the local bakery, construction yard, recycling center, et al. Our Constitution nowhere demands academic instruction. Why do our (unsuccessful) laws keep trying? Let a kid who hates algebra learn to fix a car tire, or change a bedpan at the hospital. If they change their mind later, they can return.

DVF  07/15/2008 06:40 PM Report

Ms. Rhee stated she's as accountable as anyone else, yet there's no School Board associated with the DC schools. And she stated prior to that, emphatically, that she never would have accepted the gig had one existed!

Ms. Rhee fired dozens of principals, and grinned as she explained that she'll be "poaching" from other school districts to replace them. It was unsettling to see her glee at the prospect of gaining at the expense of others; other districts, schools, teachers and kids.

Aren't we in this together? If anything worthwhile does get accomplished in the DC public schools, won't it's ultimate value be tied to the degree to which other locale's might want to emulate the approach? But without Ms. Rhee having to answer to any School Board, and with her ethical compass perhaps leaning in a questionable direction, it may just guarantee that anything potentially accomplished in the DC schools can't or won't get replicated elsewhere.

Linda Mae  07/15/2008 05:49 PM Report

>Michelle made many strong points and I applaud her for staying the course in spite of vocal negativity. She made the point that a strong relationship between administration and teacher union with focus on doing what is good for kids is the ideal. Many school districts have that positive relationship. Remember, that the union negotiates salary, working conditions and due process. No one seems to have mentioned that tenure is earned rather than given. In CT, it takes @ 4 years to attain it. Also, not mentioned are other important aspects of a school district. Curriculum, Professional Development and Evaluation committees go hand-in-hand. A teacher who is not doing well will be identified during the Evaluation process, given the chance for remediation, and then told tenure will not happen. Professional Development will review skills needed to be more effective teachers so that your students can be more effective learners. Curriculum strategies are part of this triangle. >Michelle was criticized for saying her kids needed to show mastery of those skills on standardized tests they use. I always ask those who complain about testing if they have taken the time to review the skills being tested or are they just parroting others. Google your state, test, standards to locate them and then review. What on the list is a wast of time? What should our kids not be expected to know? Some of the skills on the CT CMT tests for Language Arts include editing and revision skills: content, syntax, word choices, punctuation, usage, (subject and verb agreement, etc.)Reading asks students to show understanding of what they read and application of the information learned from the passage. Main ideas, cause and effect relationships, summarizing and making a prediction are just a few elements being evaluated. Plus, these skills can and should be practiced in all subject areas. These basics provide the skills needed for all education. Tests are supposed to be a diagnosis of what a student knows and what needs to be reviewed or retaught. Creative teachers will review these skills in a creative manner. >Charlie, you have not had a session on math. I wish you could have a panel made up of someone who was on the President's 2 year Math study committee (part of NCLB), the National Council of Teachers of Math, plus someone who is an expert on Singapore math curriculum. The study echoes the beliefs of Singapore Math in that less is more and practice is important, for example. The NCTM finally changed their opinion about multiplication facts - now 3rd graders are expected to know them rather than "understand" them. Education suffers form the flavor of the month club. Teachers - who have 5 - 6 years of education - are told what to do by "experts." What other profession has so many buttinskis? Do we tell doctors how to treat their patients? Lawyers how to protect their clients? Journalists how to do their coverage of the news? (I could add politicians to that list.)Yet everyone tells us what to do and when the "new" strategies fail - then we stand alone. It's our fault. I'd love to see a chart in which different countries are compared with the standards of school uniforms, boys, girls, educational tracts, educational attainment cut off points, different types of high school offerings, eligibility to get into the different educational paths offered, for a few.

Dave Levy  07/15/2008 05:17 PM Report

I took standard regents tests throughout high school, and did well..caus I studied hard, did my homework (rather than attend basketball games at night), prepared for college by taking required courses (not simple bookkeeping), paid attention to the teachers who I admired and respected, and did not hit or take a swing at them, (which I saw a few times). My parents had expectations of me, and they were low-middle income, hard working simple people. But they knew the value of a good education. If so-called rich kids, living in affluent districts, or who attend private schools have a better education thanks to more funding for the schools, so be it. Good for them. Why do we make demons out of the successful? Let's tax the rich more is heard over and over again...because the state needs more money, or the county is low on revenue. Here in California, 90% of State taxes are paid by 10% of the population. Most people pay no income tax. We hear, let's increase social security taxes so that the fund will be solvent in 50 years, on the rich of course. Rhee, like others on the Rose merry-go-round, blames the teachers for the ills and failures of the students. As some have commented, maybe the parents are at fault? I am reminded of a friend who taught in the Bronx, New York school system. She had 2 masters degrees, a teacher for decades., brilliant. Yet she hated going into the school, guess why? Her life was in jeopardy. She finally retired. And she was interested in educating students who were not interested per se in algebra, or chemistry, biology or geometry, subjects they would never, never use after graduation. Can anyone blame them for being bored, disinterested? Here in California, a high percentage of students never graduate, in some districts. They don't want to graduate, they are not interested. Why don't educators like Rhee get it? They want to make more babies, and who can blame them? Babies are after all nice. You talk about English vs Spanish, let's be frank. In heavily Hispanic California, mothers are teaching their children to count in Spanish, not English. Over and over again, I have witnessed this outrageous attitude. We wonder why all the extra funds provided in our schools to get students up to their grade. One poster lists all kinds of dysfunctional situations at home. But not all parents are druggies...or abusive. Some simply prefer Spanish over English for their children. This is the bottom line: schools should prepare students for the future, meaning the basics..of reading, writing and arithmatic, not to be rocket scientists, doctors or engineers. That is the real problem, the wrong emphasis. I believe in standardized minimum tests for graduation. Requiring algebra for a degree is absurd. No child left behind is a joke, education is a State problem, NOT a federal. Increasing the state sales tax is the way to provide adequate funding for all students. I ask, why should administrators be teachers? They are, after all, administrators. Incentives to learn come from within, NOT from any clever teaching method by individual teachers. Giving out hamburgers to poverty students is the job of the State, and mainly the parents. As one poster said, that is where this problem must be resolved. Teaching is a noble profession, but that doesn't pay the 5.00 per gallon of gasoline or high food costs now. If you want teachers to teach in dangerous schools or depressed areas, pay them. No one works for nothing in our society, why should they. I would recommend a voucher system, whereby parents are given payments to use as they please, in whatever school district provides the best eduation. Then everyone will be accountable, the schools, the parents, the gov't and the students.

Giovanni Amezquita  07/15/2008 05:10 PM Report

Let’s remember that this is just one side of a problem with many different views. Like some have already stated here, no one system will solve all the problems. We should listen to her and take note of both her good and bad ideas. For example, the teacher that she uses as an example is a bad one. No teacher should have to go out of their way to make up for the deficiencies that the child faces from the home and the school. But at the same time we should note that there are horrible teachers that are not being held accountable. This also applies towards the schools administration. I would propose that instead of criticizing her for her short comings, we should address what we feel that is wrong in her argument and give an alternative that keeps in mind that this problem of education is one with very many different roots.

Marco Rainaldi  07/15/2008 05:03 PM Report

I've heard a lot of good points from a lot of Charlie Rose's guests, and many more by people on this message board. I thank Charlie for bringing these issues to the public, because the subject does not get the attention it deserves.

However, I feel a lot of people are missing the elephant sitting in the room when it comes to standardized testing:

How come students aren't held to high standards of accountablilty for their performance on these standardized tests that are used to measure teacher and school performance?

As a teacher in California, I can attest that students who take certain standardized tests could bubble "A" down their entire answer sheet and suffer very little (if any) kind of penalty for their poor performance. Their semester grades won't get lower, they don't have to fear not continuing to the next course, etc. But we are willing to use that "bubble down 'A'" score to fire administrators and teachers, or dock them pay.

If you truly want to measure teacher and school performance based on student acheivment on standardized tests, you better make sure students are giving 110% effort on those tests with equally high standards of accountability that you're putting on teachers and administrators!

Mark Hevey  07/15/2008 04:50 PM Report

Michelle Rhee and Andrian Fenty have brought light to what had long been considered impossible. The reform and rebuilding of the DC educational system. The best and brightest of the Teacher's Union members should recognize that this is the best chance they will ever get to create a working environment that is rewarding for all involved.

Michael E. Russell  07/15/2008 04:12 PM Report

The answers seem simple, pay teachers what they are worth, then you can start holding them accountable for results. As of now they really have nothing to loose. Where do you get the $100k/year to pay all the teachers, from the administrators. No school administrator should make more than any teacher, and every school administrator should be a teacher. Where do you get the funding for infrastructure and supplies, force the children of the rich and powerful to go to public schools with the rest of us, the funding should be no problem.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

If that is our guide, then why do we treat the children of the poor so differently?

Richard Duran  07/15/2008 03:39 PM Report

I teach the seventh grade in Albuquerque, and I found some of Michelle Rhee's statements to be very damaging to the cause of education reform. She places the onus squarely on teachers, with no mention of the biggest failures of the educational system, the parents and the policy makers.

Many is the day I have sat waiting on parent conference day, waiting in vain. Parents view schools as free day care. My students have breakfast and lunch at school, dinner is negotiable. My students have no books, no school supplies, some have no homes, no one takes them to museums, they are being raised by alcoholics, drug addicts, sexually abused, physically abused, they aspire to be gang members, their single mothers have a seemingly endless supply of scum bags to parade through their lives. Yet no one makes them prove they are qualified to be parents.

Policy makers, school boards and bloated district bureaucracies also need to be reformed. Why aren't professional educators allowed to serve on school boards? Why aren't the school board members required to visit schools? When was the last time Ms. Rhee had her own classroom? I know what is achievable in public schools, I do the heavy lifting, and I think Ms. Rhee and her ilk are out of touch. Standardized tests imply standardized students. My sixth graders range from kids who turned 11 in July to kids who will be 13 before the year ends. That is a huge range of abilities and motivations. what is the standard sixth grader? The new immigrant from Mexico? The 12-year old girl who has a 19-year old boyfriend? The military kid who was on Okinawa last year? The kid with a 130-IQ? Or the one with fetal alcohol syndrome?

I found it telling that her story about the hero teacher included how he feeds his students dinner. Why are they not eating at home? and why didn't Ms. Rhee address that? He shouldn't have to feed his students, that is not his job. Yet I find myself a surrogate dad, a part time therapist, a moral compass, none of which are in my contract. No Child Left Behind will not work until we have No Child Left Hungry, No Child Left Homeless, No Child Abused. These social ills are either not addressed or ignored. Things I have no power over affect my job every day.

I love my students, love my job, but you could have Marx, Freud, Einstein and Jesus on your faculty and it wouldn't matter if the parents and policy makers fail. You wanna make schools better? pass a law that says congressmen and state legislators must send their kids to public schools, then see how fast they fix schools!

Richard Portalupi  07/15/2008 02:17 PM Report

Michelle Rhee provides the no-nonsense accountabity based leadership in education that is needed to pull our dismal public education system out from the depths of dispair.

Brenda  07/15/2008 10:57 AM Report

The series on education hopefully will create conversation that demands action. Placing the topic of education on the priority list for the fall election is crucial. What do you say we start with the menu list for topics on the Charlie Rose web site? Education is listed under 'Other' while 'Sports' has its own heading.

AML  07/15/2008 10:50 AM Report

Interesting interview; even more interesting comments. Several points:

1. An interviewee can only answer the questions asked. If you don't like the interview, look at the interviewer.

2. No one person is perfect (not even a "model" person).

3. If the system is not working change the system, knowing that no change with be "perfect."

4. Teachers can and do set the mood in a school. I worked with teachers last year who almost destroyed my school by their attitude and rebellion. The students started the year with a strong willingness to learn, and ended the year fighting education. Why? They followed the example set for them.

Maybe it is time for more teachers to learn how to lead in their schools IN SPITE OF a bad administration.

RE Mant  07/15/2008 09:39 AM Report

Despite all the money that the DC area has been able to skim from the govt, directly or indirectly, and all of that has been sunk into real estate, DC (and much of the suburban area) is a shambles compared to what it was 50 yrs ago. Even the blacks have left as fast as they can. Self-government has been a disaster. But what else would you expect from ppl who voted for the likes of Marion Barry? The schools are not alone as a source of fecklessness and corruption. Ms Rhee's ideas strike me to be those of her parents, and every other Korean family's I've ever known. There are, however, few Koreans in DC.

rosanne  07/15/2008 08:55 AM Report

There are many, many teachers who enter the profession for reasons other than pensions and tenure. Many of us who work in inner cities, struggle against low expectations, institutionalized racism, huge academic deficiencies, neglect, and behavior problems which are not addressed by poor administrative policies that allow children who disrupt the learning of others to continue to do so.

We also spend enormous amounts of money out of our own pockets for basic supplies that the school does not furnish, like paper to make photo copies of exams and handouts for our students.

We do this for salaries that are on average of 15 to 20 thousand less than surrounding suburbs.

Why do we do so? It's certainly not for the gratitude and public support that we have been getting in the public arena.

We do so because we are deeply committed to the children whom we serve and whom we see being destroyed by a system that refuses to address the real problems that cause the achievement gap.

As the politicians and the media defame and demoralize those of us who have given our lives to inner-city children, they continue to drive away committed and caring teachers who can no longer deal with the unbelievable lack of understanding that is shown for the enormous challenges that we face and the incredible dearth in support from school districts, politicians, and media.

As the anti-teacher movement takes hold in this country, there is one group who suffers immensely - the children.

As more and more teachers leave the field due to such anti-teacher sentiment, or simply avoid entering it, or even worse, enter for two short years and leave, ask yourself-whom is being harmed?

It's the children.

Eric Leise  07/15/2008 08:50 AM Report

While I echo many of the concerns with Michelle Rhee's plan to save DCPS, I am surprised no one felt, as I did, that Mr Rose 'went easy' on Michelle Rhee. When asked why people dislike her, Ms. Rhee ticked off reasons including her cold, dictatorial personality, as well as her lack of insight into and sensitivity to community concerns. In the interview, these 'issues' were treated as if they are simply untrue or unimportant, because for some reason Ms. Rhee's agenda, so Mr. Rose made it seem, rises above these very real concerns one might have about her modus operandi. Additionally, Mr. Rose never asked Ms. Rhee how she identifies 'ineffective' teachers. One understands she uses slanted and crude results of standardized tests (see John Lloyd's posting), but Mr. Rose should have made HER accountable to HER agenda by making her answer the question: What if you get rid of teachers who look ineffective on paper, but who may actually have potential to be effective given the proper support (so often spoken of by Ms. Rhee)? Finally, he never interrogated Ms. Rhee's belief in the idea that money buys good teachers. What about a passion to teach? Does she really believe money can buy the passion necessary to keep GOOD teachers in the classroom? If so, I'm afraid she is gravely mistaken and, as others posters have recognized, she needs to examine her own and her fellow alumni's histories as a Teach for America 'teachers.' Is Mr. Wallace (her ideal teacher) really leaving the school in DC because the other teachers in his school give him a hard time for being too good a teacher, or because he never intended to do this for more than two years? I was shocked at Mr. Rose's seemingly unquestioning acceptance of Teach for America's and Ms. Rhee's dogmatism which, like any ideology or dogma, is filled with empty words and phrases like "accountability," "relentless pursuit," "equal access," "rewards," etc. etc. etc. All these words reek of upper-middle and upper class kids who believe(d) that because they went to Princeton and decided not to take a job on Wall Street they can save the world. We need to interrogate the Teach for America model, not because it's bad, but because we need to make sure we better understand what is really behind it before blindly accepting all its pretty language.

Lucy Willard  07/15/2008 08:40 AM Report

Michelle Rhee thinks schools need more teachers like Mr. Wallace; teachers who will spend their own money and use a place like McDonald’s, on their own time, to help kids. Why isn’t she saying that schools need to provide after-school tutoring for kids, in pleasant, appealing places on the school grounds, with qualified teachers who are being paid for their work (teachers who have student loans to repay, families to support, their own kids to spend time with). Why isn’t she talking about the culture of placing the burden of school improvement on the back of a teacher, who is asked constantly to do more without the appropriate financial and administrative support? Teachers’ unions exist for this very reason. Teachers, as much as people are loathe to realize, are not monks, or nuns, or volunteers. Teachers are professionals who went to university for six years for a masters’ degree so that they could do the work that they love to do. Don’t they deserve to be appropriately compensated for this work? When they are also acting as parents, counselors, police officers, social workers, in addition to trying to teach students to do math, read and learn critical thinking skills, is it absolutely fair (Ms Rhee expressed absolute opinions on quite a few topics) to expect them to be compensated depending on test scores? Ms Rhee stated that until school systems are more about what is good for kids than about what is good for adults, the system won’t change. What she doesn’t understand, and what many people in government and elsewhere don’t seem to understand, is that having good teachers who are supported and fairly compensated for the professional work they do IS what is good for kids. The two things are not unrelated.