Charlie Rose

Therese   07/04/2008 04:58 PM Report

Interesting post by Blessing. One point I would respectfully challenge is that Zimbabweans are well-educated thanks to the British. This is not based on fact. Mugabe & Co. began an agressive education campaign soon after Independence in 1980, because, up to that time, education under the Smigh regime was a privilege and not a right for blacks. Catholic and Protestant orders set up many schools around the country. Mugabe was educated by Irish Jesuits and Canadian Marists before obtaining his first degree at Fort Hare college.

The Mugabe government created at least 3,000 schools in the rural areas. These were, let us say, 30 kms. apart. If local people objected to the distances between schools, the government advised them to build their own schools, it would provide teachers. This the rural people did in impressive numbers, making bricks and furniture themselves, some donor countries were happy to provide what the locals could not make, i.e., metal window frames and corrugated iron roofs.

The thirst for education was such that poor Zimbabweans scrimped in order to provide school uniforms and fees for their children. These fees may have been $20 or $30 but that was a considerable sum for peasants dependent on the sometimes fickle weather/rains for crops, part of which they could sell for income. There was often not sufficient money for shoes, and it became a common sight to see bare-foot children, some quite small, walking, jogging or funning along the sides of roads and high-ways. These kids eventually scored impressive "O" and "A" Levels, and it was not long before the University of Zimbabwe in Harare was bursting at the seams.

The parents of these children believed that finally their country was theirs to shape and guide into the future. They were prepared to work hard, to do whatever it took, to make the lives of their children better that theirs had been. Mugabe and his hench-men destroyed the country and with it the hopes of people who did nothing but trust the words of the man they were told had liberated them from Ian Smith. The now grown children, indeed better educated than their parents, face almost insurmountable tasks in restoring hope and purpose in a people crushed by systematic brutal repression.

With regard to Thabo Mbeki allegedly being involved in the mining sector in Zimbabwe before the end of apartheid, that is a new one! He spent the struggle years in Zambia. Thabo's brother, Moeletsi, spent some years in Zimbabwe, no information of his possible involvement in mining came to light.

Blessing  07/02/2008 10:49 PM Report

Thank you for the wonderful episode. I agree with Dr. Hove, there are worse people in ZANU-PF who are waiting to take over after Mugabe. They have benefited in ways that are not imaginable to the outside world, some have benefited from vast farms acquired illegally, several mines in Zimbabwe and Congo, investments in some of the major corporations in the world which they acquired through bribery, just to mention a few deeds.

Most countries around Zimbabwe are commenting against Zimbabwe because most of these governments were elected within the last 15 years. Their denouncement of Mugabe is still restricted because these new leaders still have to abide by the principles of the people whom they took after.

Mbeki and Mugabe are one person, in thought and deed. Firstly Mbeki does not deserve to be the leader of SA. His path to the presidency is through his dad, who was a high ranking ANC member, whom Mandela also owed his life and for keeping ANC strong whilst he was in prison. Even Mbeki’s father is on record, for stating that his son was not ready to lead the ANC. Another reason why Mbeki has to stay as the mediator, regardless of what the international community say’s is that he is considered as one of the people who have benefited from Mugabes rule. During apartheid, Mbeki was a Millionaire playboy in Zimbabwe for 8 years, running some of richest mines in the country under the protection of Mugabe and ZANU-PF, for this reason the mediation will keep going for as long as one of them can sustain it, unfortunately Mbeki will never do that. Also, Mbeki is benefiting from the cheap labor from Zimbabwe laborers. Also, it is common knowledge that Zimbabweans are some of the best educated people in the world, thanks to the British. For this reason, SA’s growth has been due some part to the 3 million documented and undocumented Zimbabweans in SA.

MOST importantly, Mbeki is not going to change his stance on Mugabe. Even Mr. Mandela knows this. JACOB ZUMA is also going to weaken his strong condemnation of Mugabe when he realizes that apartheid in SA ended at a time it did because Mugabe was convinced by the ANC not to implement his destructive policies while apartheid was going on. The reason being that the West and the rest of the World would not have continued with the fight against apartheid if SA if SA was going to end up the way of Zimbabwe.

Going back to sanctions, these will not work on Mugabe and his people. The main reason being that Mugabe has had sanctions against him for several years. The only benefit of sanctions is to Mugabe, who will blame the west for Zimbabwe’s economic woes on the targeted sanctions.

Therese  07/02/2008 03:46 PM Report

Chenjerai Hove's comments were useful in reminding us that Robert Mugabe will never share power with anyone and that his successor may be as bad, or possibly worse when it comes to violations of human rights, murder and violence. The oft-touted favourite to succeed Mugabe, Emmerson Mnanganwa, was head of the Central Intelligence Organization (CIO) in the early 1980's in Matabeleland, during the systematic murder of "dissidents," i.e. opponents or challengers of Mugabe and his party, ZANU PF. Deaths, which have never been reliably tallied, range from 10,000 to 30,000. Two years ago, Mnangagwa over-saw the destruction in Zimbabwean cities of shanty-towns and small businesses erected by former farm labourers deprived of jobs and homes when they were driven off white farms which were confiscated and given to Mugabe's hench-men.

It is difficult if not impossible to figure out how the Zimbabwean chess-board will be rearranged and when. There are players in the shadows that are not freguently mentioned in the media like Rex Nhongo,former liberation war tactician and former head of the Zimbabwean Army, husband of Vice President Joyce Mujuru. There is also Doctor Sydney Sekeramai, also a former CIO chief. Like Mugabe, none of these men are likely to agree to power-sharing with the Movement for Democratic Change, MDC.

For some time to come, Zimbabwe's, and South Africa's populations may very well have to endure the rule of men, who, as former liberation leaders, seemingly believe that they never have to say "I'm sorry," no matter how brutal and despotic they may be. Robert Mugabe acts as though this is his belief. Thabo Mbeki, with his stubborn support of Mugabe, tacitly supports it. The African Union, at its summit this week in Egypt, failed miserably to tell Robert Mugabe he is wrong. The AU passed the buck to the Southern Africa Development Conference (SADC) - whose dominant voice is Thabo Mbeki - to sort out the Zimbabwe mess.

Conditions could get a lot worse before they get better in Zimbabwe. One benefit from Mugabe's early years - his focus on education -means that the country has a well-educated, hard-working - when they have the opportunity -population. Zimbabweans themselves will eventually devise mechanisms to restore their country to its rightful place as a shining jewel of Africa. Only a home-grown, democratic solution will have any chance of success in Zimbabwe. Anything imposed from the ouside will insult the intelligence of Zimbabweans and will not be viable. What the outside world can do is provide assistance when and if it is requested. The Zimbabwean people will need all the help they can get, they deserve it.

L.Hardcastle  06/27/2008 02:35 PM Report

The tragic failure of leadership in Zimbabwe and in South Africa with respect to the former makes one gawk with unabashed governance envy at the democratic process in America, even though the jaw-dropping endowment of America is sometimes hijacked for nefarious ends such as raping slick countries. Mbeki and Mugabe are essentially racist. They hide behind the ills of the colonial era and play the tired blame game to avoid tackling the challenges faced by their peoples. They are such diminutive little ants in the shadow of Mandela. Mugabe lost his humanity and ability to compromise when Smith fried his balls in a Rhodesian torture cell and then had them surgically removed and pickled. Mbeki is just an ideas man, not an action man like his esteemed father: his idea of an African renaissance is just that, an idea, devoid of concrete action to make it real. He has squandered every opportunity at greatness presented to him. Any leader who fails to recognize the threat to national security that AIDS and the situation in Zimbabwe present is an abject failure. Where would these people have found refuge or ultimately seen a successful end to their liberation struggle if people around the world had begged leave in the fight against apartheid touting 'non-intervention' and quiet limp engagement. Despite his possession of this mongrel (on his part) Lobengula stubborness gene, this Mugabe nut will crack as soon as collective effort is applied to helping the poor people of that land do what they have been thwarted from doing themselves. What I fear is that the diplomacy plus sanctions process of the UN, AU, SADC, etc. will lose the race to a solution to a gruesome group such as the Coalition of Extraordinary Non-entities led by some comic character bearing the affected and contrived-sounding name of Nogwatscher Ntokolotschi Situhwane Burns. Judging by some of the literature these people are putting out, they are building an incinerator for the tyrant and his entourage, which would be an entirely avoidable tragedy for the people of the region.

Stephen Mhere  06/27/2008 02:32 PM Report

Chenjerai Hove is an activist who has earned his place among Zimbabwe's progressive people by virtue of his persecution at the hands of the government of Zimbabwe. He is a writer, a poet, and an educator (and perhaps an intellectual because of that), and does not claim to have all the answers for Zimbabwe’s troubles. Because of the situation in Zimbabwe and being a Zimbabwean himself, he is prone to say things out of frustration and anger such as saying Mugabe is senile or that Mugabe does not know where he is.

Chenjerai is only giving a perspective that only someone who has been put through the burner can. Rather than analyse, word for word, the style of his presentation on Charlie Rose’s program, we should be looking at his overarching message. And that message is that Mugabe is a firm believer of Kamuzu Banda’s concept of a Life Presidency and will defend it in every way and by every means, including abusing human rights and outright murdering of his own people.

Mads  06/27/2008 12:51 PM Report

If Chenjerai Hove should represent the sensible, pragmatic part of Zimbabwe then the future does not look bright for that country, on those grounds alone. You would think that as an Intellectual who fled Zimbabwe because of his political views, Hove would be a person who knew what to say about these things. But his contribution to the discussion consisted of almost nothing but rambling and contradictions. Does he have an opinion of UN sanctions? It was impossible for me to decipher.

"alot of people are saying mugabe is stupid - he is not".. 15 minutes later: "Mugabe is a senile old man who doesnt know where he is".

Stephen Mhere  06/27/2008 12:09 PM Report

Thank you for highlighting the situation in Zimbabwe on your show. I hope as the situation changes, as it has today with the run-off 'elections', you will revisit this issue and help the Zimbabwean people by informing the world of their plight. Perhaps you might invite the Zimbabwean Ambassador so he too can present his government's side of the issue.

Shaft  06/26/2008 07:16 PM Report

Thank You Mr. Rose, very timely topic and fruitful discussion that deserved the attention of the free world and democrats around the world. It is unfortunate that the Zimbabwean leader is loosing his charm of the blackest of all sub-Saharan Africa leaders. He was considered the best democrat amongst the sub-Saharan leaders until change becomes desirable for Zimbabweans, making his very own position about to be challenged and that was not easy for him to swallow. Its funny that he was encouraging all the citizens to go out and exercise their voting rights and he will respect the outcome no matter what, and the people believed him and took his word. They come out by droves; suddenly he realized he no longer was the favorite, what does he do? He makes a U turn and allows his gangsters to go on a rampage killing of the supporters of the opposition. The same happened in Kenya recently, because the US supported that regime in violation. Hence they felt obliged to save him from disgrace by sharing power with the winning opposition. The Ethiopian dictator is in violation of basic democratic election in which the people voted him out, but then again the US supports his violation for an exchange to invade Somalia for staying in power. These violations are supported by the current administration at the same time if the dictator is not in agreement with States Department desire then they condemn. Although, I am not happy with the remaining dictators in Africa violating their people, at least I appreciate the condemnation of the open violation displayed by Mugabe and co. It was important for Presidential hopeful (Sen. Obama) to condemn the open violation in Zimbabwe by letting Mugabe know that he will not be seen favorably even if the Democrats are to win the November presidential election in the US. With respect to South Africa, there is not going to be much change until Jacob Zuma takes over, but the recent condemnation by Nelson Mandela has come a little late yet necessary to add on the pressure on South African current president Thabo Mbeki. I am glad that Mandela finally broke his silence against Mugabe. I hope the NAACP will follow with condemnation of Mugabe's killing spree of the opposition supporters. The idea of sanction may be a little to late, the economy is going downwards and anymore sanction will not affect it as it is collapsing.

Chris Roberts  06/26/2008 06:46 PM Report

Things have moved on but the question I had last year was why local African leaders were failing to condemn Mugabe unambiguously. Ex President Kaunda of neighboring Zambia explained things thus to the BBC at that time - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6728015.stm and I quote: "The Thatcher government had begun to deal with the land issue, as did her successor, John Major. But when Tony Blair took over in 1997, I understand that some young lady in charge of colonial issues within that government simply dropped doing anything about it."

I think the young lady may have been Claire Short (British Secretary of State for International Development) and this may be her letter:

http://maravi.blogspot.com/2007/03/zimbabwe-claire-shorts-letter-nov-5th.html.

We should all pray this beautiful country and wonderful people return to good and just governance.

Chris

Natasha  06/26/2008 05:31 PM Report

This is frustrating. People are suffering and it seems like nothing is being done about it. We need more than public statement condemning Mugabe's actions. We need to secure the safety of the citizens of Zimbabwe.

There is an online petition directed towards the U.N. Security Council and the neighboring Southern African nations to put more pressure on Mugabe.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/196731055

Charles O'Neal  06/26/2008 04:00 PM Report

Very well-scripted, predictable show. The only thing left unsaid by the "experts" on the show is "...at last we've got him (Mugabe) on the ropes. It's taken us nearly 30 years to pay him back for wresting our precious Rhodesia from us and with a little help from the international community we'll get our jewel back. Even if we have to "slime" Mbeki to do it..."

Where was this level of outrage when Ian Smith was (as Chenjerai Hove acknowledged) using a "British gentleman" as a hangman? Why didn't we exert our commitment to free and open elections when oppression of Blacks forced Sithole and Mugabe to the bush? Why is it hard to understand Mugabe's antipathy for the West when only the Soviet bloc responded to his cry for assistance in the fight for liberation?

It is clear that the only resolution acceptable to the West is "recolonization." Pitiful!

Bigfoot  06/26/2008 02:02 AM Report

Caught part of the show, however, I did not hear any mention of Carter, Young, Kissinger or AIDS. Rhodesia was super.