Charlie Rose

neil maccallister  06/08/2008 11:28 PM Report

Age old advice says, "The greatest opponent we ever face is ourselves", ..and "Peace is always possible, and it usually comes after people stop fighting." I see a lot of people fighting here, why? What is the prize? One of the 18 people here (..therefore 5.5% of the population) is the loudest declarer of "stolen land", yet he is found to consume 45% of this column space. Hmmmm. May I just ask a question? Why do discussions, and media, love to dote on arguments of histories, religions, races, "settlements" (with so little info of context)? Just to sell newspapers? The truth is, all the people of the Middle East have long time connections to the land. It seems the more important realities are population densities, and the natural resource sharing. A special question: "Is the farmable land, the drinking and irrigation water, the available seaports being equally and peacebly shared?" We all have to get along sooner or later, do we not? May we start by getting along right here in this column? Thank you!

-- Don't hold your breath! -- N.ot I.srael L.obby A.pproved/P.assable: it gets the final say. --   06/07/2008 12:15 AM Report

Comment by Fred on Friday, Jun 6 at 04:55 PM: "I'd love to hear Charlie interview Norman Finkelstein."

sock puppet  06/06/2008 08:07 PM Report

Lets hear the applause from the smart Zionists as they fill up their SUVs tomorrow. ----------------- And Obama? What a vacuous sycophant. We are hell-bent on earning everything we'll get. The Israeli choke-hold on our system in full throttle. Disappointing that he prostituted himself so early. Take heart you sons-of-Moses, you're still in control.

Fred  06/06/2008 04:55 PM Report

I'd love to hear Charlie interview Norman Finkelstein.

-- "Israel-basher" -- definition --   06/05/2008 05:27 PM Report

ANYONE who opposes a semi-theocractic, religio-ethnic, Jewish fundamentalist, militant settler-colonial apartheid state, with its foreign invader government, against the native/indigenous Palestinian people (Muslim, Christian and secular) in historic Palestine; ...ANYONE who opposes our politicians --at every level-- being held as SLOBBERING SYCHOPHANTIC SLAVES TO THE ISRAEL LOBBY (Obama -- and he's supposed to be the candidate of "Change"? -- the Democratic nominee's "first major foreign policy speech" was not about pursuing world peace or getting us out of in Iraq, a war largely at Israel's and its Washington Zionist neocons' behest, but to pronounce his *"non-negotiable"* fealty to Israel, and to attack/war against whatever other Mideast country, like Iran, Israel wants the U.S. to attack), regardless of the cost in American lives, or to the American treasury/economy, or what we have to give up in programs like upgrading public transportation, improving low-income educational attainment, *helping the still-suffering/homeless Katrina victims*, or having national or guaranteed *affordable* health care that all other economically advanced democracies have (and even some 3rd World countries to the extent they can), but to instead directly/indirectly pay for what Israel wants, and the cost to even tens/hundreds of 1,000's of other people's lives and millions of their well-being; ...ANYONE WHO OPPPOSES *ANY* FORM OF RACISM -- Nazism, Segregationsim, Apartheid, and Zionism -- NO MATTER TO PRACTICES IT; ...ANYONE who seeks the truth. ____ Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA

sock puppet  06/05/2008 10:09 AM Report

Shalom (your parents are real cards), the Jewish strangle-hold on our system - exemplified by Baracks obligatory homage to Israel - is a major contributing factor to my dismay with our obeisance to its existence. Quite frankly you're a scary people. You all come on like 'gang-busters.' Look at your lead-in. Dissenters are ipso facto ignorant. Your (Israeli's) easy acceptance of 30:1; 10:1; multiples:1 murder ratios adds to my (an many others?) chagrin. And you to-a-person seem to be pathological rationalizers. Your 8:58 AM post is a perfect example. Perhaps this is understandable and a semblance of being human. Self exculpatory. (Kudos for feeling the need. Maybe there's hope?) Personally am not so sanguine. Pessimistic in truth. I think your beloved State will ultimately prove to be the lynch-pin for the incineration of the planet. Short of another diaspora (agree - no way) our species is incapable of a solution. Dante awaits. Makes progeny a profound curse, eh?

Shalom Freedman  06/05/2008 09:11 AM Report

I see that this site too draws a number of ignorant Israel- bashers. They well illustrate Pope's principle about a 'little learning being a dangerous thing'. They have facts but they distort them in such a way that they cease to be facts. They mix things up into a mishmash and make it into a rant. Above all they hate and resent Israel, and very often the United States.

Instead of commenting on what they have seen on the show they go into their own very weird takes on the conflict.

My consolation is that I read their remarks after hearing Barack Obama reaffirm the traditional American commitment to Israel's security.

Shalom Freedman  06/05/2008 08:58 AM Report

This was an interesting discussion which taught me a lot about the way the State Dept. and Aaron Miller think about the conflict in the Middle East. It is interesting for instance that Miller commends Baker's policy and the Madrid conference which it led to. There are many in Israel who consider it the disastrous preliminary to disastrous Oslo.

Miller Freedman and also Charlie Rose share the 'settlements are an obstacle to peace' position. When there is a need to be even- handed, and the U.S. is always striving to be 'even- handed' it is necessary to condemn Israel for something. As Israel does not deliberately kill civilians, or incite as the Palestinians do to murder and suicide- bombing the point of fault is taken to be settlements. But the fact of the matter is the Arab opposition to Israel long precedes any 'settlements'. And the 'settlements' themselves have to be understood as falling into different categories. There are 'settlements' in areas formerly held by Israel, and settlements in areas which are 'state lands' when there is no legal determination of who the state in question is . The truer designation for the area in which many settlements are is 'disputed territory'.

In any case this was an informative and realistic discussion.

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/04/2008 09:29 PM Report

TO Comment by sock puppet on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 09:02 PM: Thanks for the props. (I have other stuff on the web under "joseph anderson" + berkeley.) I must admit that I don't suffer wanton fools and racists -- especially HYPOCRITICAL RACIST Zionist Jews -- very well, let alone mass human rights violators. (I'm usually gentler on younger, say high school age and below, Jews because I realize that they have been brainwashed by people -- parents, rabbis, Zionist Jewish national & community center leaders, organizers and organizations, their government, and Israel itself -- that they never expected to lie to them, and thus they've never objectively researched the issue.) Gandhi, in "The Jews of Palestine, 1938" (online), called Zionism "a crime against humanity." Albert Einstein said that, "It would be my greatest sadness to see Jews do to Palestinian Arabs much of what Nazis did to Jews." Anti-Zionist, anti-racist Jewish-American activist and essayist Tim Wise, in "Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew" (online), said "Surely it is not for this ignoble end, that six million died." Both Nazi Germany and, later, modern-day Israel premised themselves on resurrecting some glorrrious ancient kingdom based on purity of blood: some glorrrious ancient Teutonic 'kingdom' for the Nazis, and some glorrrious ancient Jewish 'kingdom' for the Zionists (it's not called NAtional ZIonism for nothing: it's linguistic irony). In fact, one Israeli Jewish refusenik (as those who refuse military duty or certain military operations that not even they will perform are called) soldier said that one of his military superior officers proclaimed, "Let's be Judeo-Nazis!", as Israel was about to mass-homicidally rampage through Jenin and other West Bank Palestinian towns (see "Open Letter to American Jews", by Assaf Oron. April 1, 2002, seruv.org.il or at antiwar.com). And it was admitted that the Israeli ground military was studying *Nazi* methods in the Warsaw ghetto for use in Israeli military operations in Palestinian areas. Note that both Nazi German and Israel created ghettos of poverty and oppression; and Israel has constructed its own set of a legally intricate (just like the Nazis) system of Israel's 'Nuremburg'-style racial Laws; Israel even has its own anti-miscengenation laws and residential racial restrictions (you know there used to be laws like that against Jews in Europe and America). Last year, shown on Germany's Deutsche Welle TV, an Israeli Jewish woman and her new Palestinian husband went to move to *Germany*, -- from Israel -- for a normal life because of Israel's anti-miscegenation laws. See, "Putting Love to the Test - Why Israeli-Palestinian Couples go into Exile", dw-world.de, under their "People and Politics" program. Yet Israel has *complained* that Germany is accepting too many Jewish immigrants! -- because a growing proportion of Jews (and especially Eastern European Jews) even want to go to *Germany* more than they want to go to Israel!! (Last year, one of Israel's leading Jews, a *Zionist* Jewish historian went to live in *Italy*!! One day he simply quit Israel. Another prominent Israeli Jewish historian moved to England. I know a Russian Jew in Berkeley who used Israel as a backdoor to get into the U.S.! *Many* Jews, though not nearly enough, have left Israel -- even some Holocaust survivors and some who fought in the anti-Nazi underground. One elderly, formerly Israeli, originally European, Jew, now living in Berkeley, told me, "I saw how the Zionists treated the Palestinians. There's nothing any moral Jew can do in Israel but leave." I mean, what good moral person wants to live in an officially, ideologically racist state oppressing and humiliating millions of other people -- men, women, girls, boys, toddlers and infants -- whose only real crime was not being born Jewish, and resisting, or trying to survive, Zionist Jewish brutal oppression!?) So, anyway, ISRAEL *WANTS* GERMANY TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST JEWISH IMMIGRATION!!

sock puppet  06/03/2008 09:02 PM Report

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 05:34 PM . . . . . . . . Ashamed that I've returned to this scene, BUT . . . Impressed with your presentation. Hope I'm not being too credulous. Minor critique: your discourse is demeaned somewhat by too much vitriol aimed at Royston. Distracts from (what I hope are) your facts. Keep up the good work. They're an overbearing, confrontational and remorseless lot; willing to risk the planets future for their selfish, murderous interests. Their poltical power is anathema and growing. The venal whores populating our government are for sale - and cheap. Say $4,999.99/vote? And they're buying - at any price.

Anton Grambihler  06/03/2008 08:27 PM Report

To: Comment by Joseph Anderson. Why only go back 2000 years. One needs to go back to before the Israelis begin their first rein of terror on this land.

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 06:15 PM Report

TO Comment by neil maccallister on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 03:51 PM: ___ An ancient presence by, especially, religious ancestors doesn't morally entitle *anyone* to say that "Our ancient religious ancestors had a country here 2000 years ago -- promised to us by "God": we've come back for it now." No country in the world would accept such an *UTTERLY RIDICULOUS* claim. The ancient Hebrews weren't even the first ones there in Palestine and only temporarily politically occupied parts of it. And it was Europeans, the Romans, who kicked the ancient Hebrews out for 'stirring up trouble' -- NOT Arabs/Muslims (who are farrr more Semitic than European/American Jews are in modern times, having lived in Europe and intermixing to a certain extent for 2,000 years). Modern Palestine was an OVERHWHELMINGLY Arab country -- and the Palestinians have always acknowledged the moral right of the, then remaining indigenous Palestinian Jews to live there in peace -- indigenous Palestinian Jews, who's culture was certainly more Arab than European, who *NEVER* called for a Zionist/Jewish state and even *opposed* it -- indigenous Palestinian Jews who themselves were markedly (and sometimes harshly) discriminated against by the white European Jewish invaders. (European Jewish/Israeli terrorists, secretly posing as Arabs -- not the only time they tried to secretly pose as Arabs to commit terrorism -- even, in part, drove Sephardic Jews out of Arab countries by planting scare bombs and anti-Semitic graffiti in Jewish neighborhoods) What if we ALL tried to reverse 2,000 years of human migration and go back and claim ancient lands -- claiming "God" gave us the right? As one previous commenter below put it, since all humanity evolved from Africa, Europeans could 'go back' and colonize all of Africa (oh, that's right: they *did* at one time)!

crviewerservice  06/03/2008 05:58 PM Report

Videos will return as soon as Google Video works out it's technical issues.

Thank You for your patience!

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 05:34 PM Report

TO: Royston on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 03:58 PM. First of all, Zionist Jews, numerous German Jewish elders (some who even administered the death trains for the Nazis), numerous Jewish Nazi concentration camp inmates, and some of Israel's political founders (who even traded with and offered to fight with the Nazis!), often tried to *COLLABORATE* with the Nazis! Furthermore, when the choices were between a Jewish state in Palestine and *actually* saving European Jews when they needed it most, Israel's founding Zionist Jews always chose their racist *state*(like it's first prime minister Ben Gurion who said that if he could have saved even half the Jewish children of Nazi Germany *or* the state of Israel, he'd choose the latter!). In fact, Israel's founders and later politicians often *prevented* Jews from fleeing to other countries, sometimes by putting pressure on other governments NOT TO ACCEPT Jewish emigrants. See, "51 Documents: Zionists Collaboration with the Nazis" and other LANDMARK scholarly books, by Lenni Brenner (currently living in New York) -- one of the world's foremost authorities and scholars on the history of Jewish Zionism and Israel. He's older than most Jews alive and has known many of Israel's historical Zionist founders that he's written about. And he loves debating HYPOCRITICAL Zionist fools like you, Royston. Secondly, why not take your childish Zionist propaganda somewhere else? Even ISRAELI JEWISH HISTORIANS like Illan Pappe ("The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" and one of Israel's foremost historical scholars) who is actually *anti-Zionist*, Benny Morris ("The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem") who readily and *proudly* admits (like a proud Nazi or KKKlansman) that Israel was indeed founded on ethnic cleansing but says that Israel should have finished the job(!!), Susan Nathan ("The Other Side of Israel"), Israel Shahak ("Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel"), Tom Segev ("1949: The First Israelis"), anti-Zionist Jews like Ralph Schoenman ("The Hidden History of Zionism"), writer and Israel lobby expert Jeffrey Blankfort (see articles online) who exposed the ADL spy network against American progressive activists/movements (including spying the for the then *apartheid* South African government), Norman Finkelstein ("The Holocaust Industry" and "Beyond Chutzpah"), and a slew of other Israeli and Jewish-American historians/researchers/writers, discredit your childish Zionist patriotic nonsense. Those academics/researchers know more about Israel in the tip of their little thumb than you know in your entire brain. Except for Benny Morris and *maybe* Tom Segev, all these Jews are anti-Zionist. These are Jewish scholars that you'll never see on The Charlie Rose Show. Even Robert Malley (a Zionist), one of Clinton's chief Mideast negotiators said that it's a Zionist propaganda canard, "Barak's generous offer", that Ehud Barak (learn to spell his name right, Royston) gave Arafat "98.5%" (and others should be aware that that Zionist propaganda figure keeps *going up*: first it was "90%", then it was "95%", then it was "97%", then it was "98%" and now Royston tells us and has narrowed it down to *"98.5%"*! -- I didn't get the new propaganda memo) of what the Palestinians wanted. You see, only by playing on white anti-Palestinian racism can Zionist Jews have anyone (anyone else white) believe that the Palestinians would turn down "98.5%" of what they wanted. Like if one owed a Palestinian $100 after 60 years, they would turn down an offer of $98.50. Besides, Israel at best is only *hypothetically* offering the Palestinians about 10-15% of their original land (and the worst land at that), so Israel couldn't have possibly been offering 98.5%. And Jimmy Carter, a 'liberal' Christian Zionist at that, said (once on even the Charlie Rose show) about "Barak's (so-called) generous offer", that "Ehud Barak's offer was *so manifestly unfair* to the Palestinians that had Arafat signed it, he (Arafat) would have been assassinated within a week". So, Royston, why not just go take your childish Zionist propaganda to some other website? Are you too simple-minded to see that, today, you're outgunned here? You remind me of an historical drama about the Hitler Youth, where some kid is babbling simple-minded Nazi propaganda about "the superior/chosen race" of Aryan people even as it's all starting to fall apart. Zionist mythology/propaganda has been *EXPOSED* -- and a lot of it by Jews themselves. As for your glib little 'intellectual' *non sequitur*, "Happiness is equilibrium, shift your weight!", does that apply to the Nazis and the Holocaust? -- or just to oppressed people who *aren't* Jewish, especially those that Zionist Jews themselves oppress?

Ferdinand Gajewski, PhD  06/03/2008 05:04 PM Report

This was a good discussion. Check out www.jstreet.org/

sock puppet  06/03/2008 04:40 PM Report

Neil - You've struck a nerve. Their is something degrading about one-on-ones. No one or nothing changes. Verifies my pessimism. Cept yours all tooooo mildly. I'm outa here. To tend my (own) garden [or p's and q's\.

Royston  06/03/2008 04:32 PM Report

Neil you are spot on. Beautifully said. Some people would rather argue than resolve, like our puppet friend here. I have resigned myself to that fact and I leave you all.

sock puppet  06/03/2008 04:32 PM Report

Royston rehash: "I guess you didn't read my blogs yet again Sock puppet. look below on my statements about retaliatory attacks. Also Math is wrong...Check again my friend." OK, here's what you said, "In response Israel (while I will admit excessively) go in under the ideology that you kill 5 of ours will kill 50 of yours. Not pretty, doesn't help,...." You caught me. Crowing about a unverified 10:1 says a lot. Take your victories(?) where you can. Your condescending retorts are worth the price of admission, and a sterling reminder of why the arrogance of the show's guests caused my venture into this bs to begin with. btw my 30:1 ratio was not from my backside. Yours?

neil maccallister  06/03/2008 04:23 PM Report

SP, ..you may lead by example. Peace is not impossible. Arguing is quite a bore after a while. Write your piece and move on, the world is still turning and there are lots of things still needing accomplishment today. Remember: "Tend your garden."

sock puppet  06/03/2008 04:08 PM Report

Neil - You're ingenuous suggestion that we should (pluralistically) just get along, would be great except it presumes an intelligence conspicuous by its absence. Elst we wouldn't be where we are. The apocolypse juggernaut is inexorable. Perhaps deservedly so.

Royston  06/03/2008 04:06 PM Report

One other thing puppet of socks. Are you saying with your neat little backyard simile that the only way out of this is for Israel to pack up and leave? Because if that is your whole theory why even waste your energy writing these blogs, if you are not going to mention something that could feasibly happen? Come down to practical earth and join a constructive pathway. Put something out there with thought.

Royston  06/03/2008 04:01 PM Report

I guess you didn't read my blogs yet again Sock puppet. look below on my statements about retaliatory attacks. Also Math is wrong...Check again my friend.

Royston  06/03/2008 03:58 PM Report

Joseph Anderson I have a quote that will help you, it's from Tom Stoppard...You ready? "Happiness is equilibrium, shift your weight!" Joesph you are so out of balance on this subject, it breaks though my computer screen. you can't even read any of the statements I wrote correctly. To compare Nazi Germany to this!!! Did Hitler give more money to the Jews than any other country including their neighboring allies. Did Hitler say that I am willing to compromise with you but first you have to stop bombing us? Did Hitler agree to 98.5% of what Jews wanted, (eg taken from Ehud Baracks agreement with Arafat). See your going to have to wake up one day and say, "Damn, I'm really ignorant and angry". the next thing your going to have to say is "Maybe i should put all this energy into making my life better". Because I am willing to bet any money in the world you are one very stagnant person. Go out and investigate my claims, make up your mind based on study. good luck to you.

sock puppet  06/03/2008 03:53 PM Report

Royston, gee I don't have a clue. Especially since you believe you stole my thunder by preempting the land-back option, with this: "Now think about it, if you say give them land back, do you think that will stop these people." . . . Well try this: If you took my back yard away from me and killed my children in the process, I guess I may feel like the yard somehow has lost it's value. Please preempt my next option as it eludes me. I've not much left save despair. Exacerbated by your readiness to up the murder ratio to 50:1 sans an iota of remorse. SIEG HIEL!!

neil maccallister  06/03/2008 03:51 PM Report

In this interview, Mr. Miller repeats an opinion shared on 5/15 by Mr. Parag Khanna: "America sees the world as they want to see it, not as it is." That is both true and inevitable, as we are far removed from most nations of the world. We try the best we can. Do we need to keep up military and geopolitical defenses? ..or should we relax our postures and expect peace? What is the reality of the world society? A quick read through the cross-section of worldly behaviors below makes me believe that there does exist a problem with that belief that "If we all just sit down, we will have peace." One point of particular interest relevant to the discussions below: "Why do so many people believe that 'Israel' first stepped upon the world, or that land, only 60 years ago?" Are not the Dead Sea Scrolls thousands of years old, and found within those lands? Also, the temple ruins in Jerusalem, are those recent remains as well? History is important, but only if it is read and considered. Sharing space, and resources, is difficult, but isn't that the only option for us all? By the way, I read that those Hebrew scrolls were found by a Muslim, and brought to the world. I believe that is an example that cooperation has its rewards. The Muslims deserve their lands, the Jews their lands, the Christians, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the Taoists, the agnostics, the atheists, ..Why not everyone? Alternatively, we could just fight, spit, and hate. But where would that get us? Where has it gotten us?

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 03:40 PM Report

Royston on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 02:42 PM. COMMENTS:(1)"their [sic\ is no "right" or "wrong" with this conflict; (2)"[RE\ ARE YOU CLAIMING, Royston, THAT 'JEWS ARE A PARTICULARLY NASTY AND USEFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE PARTICULARLY GOOD AT DOING OUR "DIRTY WORK" FOR US IN THE MIDDLE EAST???'" (3)"when you start shaving"; (4)"realize that the world is not perfect, you will see that every country gets dirty ... Countries are strategic pieces on a global chess board." ______ MY RESPONSE: (1)Was there any "right" or "wrong" in Nazi Germany, in the plunder and genocide against Native Americans, in American slavery and "Jim Crow", in South African apartheid? There is no moral equivalency between THE OPPRESSOR and the oppressed, the ethnic cleansers and the ethnically cleansed, or the invaders and the invaded. (2)That's what *you* more than suggested in your 'logic'. (3)Puh-leaze! Have you seen the *beards* on *YOUR* people? On rabbis -- or on those Orthodox Jews at the Wailing Wall? -- or the *fundamentalist Jews* in the many West Bank settlements like in Hebron -- or on those ultra-patriarchal Hasidic Jews in *Brooklyn* (talk about shunning modernity)! (4) "every country gets dirty...on the global chessboard", huh? I'll remember that facile and expedient moral write-off from Zionist/pro-Israel Jews like you (I guess when it's not against *Jews*) the next time you Zionist/pro-Israel Jews *HYPOCRTICALLY* throw the Holocaust at us -- AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN -- OVER AND OVER AND OVER -- LIKE ZIONIST JEWS ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE THAT MATTER -- which should be, uhhh, about *EVERY OTHER DAY* on some American TV/cable channel in the form of news, documentaries, and dramas. Zionist Jewish *HYPOCRITES* exploiting the previous mass suffering, dispossession, ethnic cleansing, and elimination of their own people, at the hands of *European Christians*, now used as a form of 'war propaganda' against the Palestinian people. THANKFULLY IN BERKELEY AND THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, THERE ARE MANY *ANTI-ZIONIST* JEWS (MANY WHO'VE EVEN LOST RELATIVES IN THE HOLOCAUST) -- WHO BELIEVE THAT, JUST AS EUROPEANS SHOULDN'T HAVE BRUTALLY OPPRESSED JEWS, JEWS SHOULDN'T BRUTALLY OPPRESS *OTHERS*.

Royston  06/03/2008 03:38 PM Report

Sock puppet. Read my comment below. stand tall and give back. What say you on my comment at 3:01? put yourself out there my friend.

sock puppet  06/03/2008 03:26 PM Report

Royston, stand tall! I agree with your statement (lifted here), "If we were not to support them, who would be our eyes and ears and more importantly who would do our dirty work for us???" Spot on!!! I'm sure dick Cheney, Shrub, Rumsfeld et al agree as well. You're in good company. The more vulnerable (weak) we become we both (Israel and US) will believe we have a unilateral god-given sanction to use 'the/our bomb/s.' After all we're a sanctified duo of "The-Chosen," and a specially dollar-donated subservient of same. Which reminds, we could sure use a (reverse) flow of Shekels into our financial services sector. Our cough might be contagious. Israel should mind one of its ailing parents. Donations are urgently needed!

Royston  06/03/2008 03:01 PM Report

sock puppet still causing trouble I see. okay let's get into it. If your statistics are true that the kill ratio is 30:1, (somehow that doesn't add up to me, but anyway,) my question to you is how much of that is done in retaliatory attacks? Here is how it goes, Iran and Syria provides weapons to Hammas, they attack Israel (sometimes on a daily basis with meaningless mortars) they kill Israeli civilians and soldiers. In response Israel (while I will admit excessively) go in under the ideology that you kill 5 of ours will kill 50 of yours. Not pretty, doesn't help, but when you are dealing with regimes who want to wipe them off the map, what would you have them do? So Sock Puppet, I open the forum to you, what would be a better response? Now think about it, if you say give them land back, do you think that will stop these people. Let's hear what you have to say?

Royston  06/03/2008 02:42 PM Report

Joseph Anderson you go to Berkley I see. Your probably still an idealist who believes the world can change by one really witty sentence. RE your comment,"THAT 'JEWS ARE A PARTICULARLY NASTY AND USEFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE PARTICULARLY GOOD AT DOING OUR "DIRTY WORK" FOR US IN THE MIDDLE EAST". I don't know if this needs defending, but no, this is not what I said. What I have tried to say is their is no "right" or "wrong" with this conflict, but a lot of truly inexperienced people feel they know the answer . See one day, when you start shaving and realize that the world is not perfect, you will see that every country gets dirty. Yes, even ours. That is the reality of life my friend. Countries are strategic pieces on a global chess board. But to say that JEWS ARE A PARTICULARLY NASTY AND USEFUL PEOPLE, that is airing your ignorance out in public. I hereby decree that you should only be allowed to watch the Hills. I don't think you can be saved my friend.

* THOSE UNGRATEFUL NATIVES!! *   06/03/2008 02:35 PM Report

TO: J.R. Writer on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 12:32 PM: ____ I TELL YA IT'S THE WHITE MAN'S BURDEN, HUH J.R.? ...WE BRING THE NATIVES *CIVILIZATION*, FROM THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY (EVEN FROM OTHER CONTINENTS), IN EXCHANGE FOR SHOOTING THEM, BOMBING THEM, DRIVING THEM OFF, KILLING THEM IN DROVES OR TURNING THEM INTO REFUGEES IN THEIR OWN LAND, TAKING THEIR LAND AND HOMES AND FARMS AND ORCHARDS, DESTROYING THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE, STEALING THEIR RESOURCES (EVEN THEIR WATER IN PALESTINE), DIVIDING THEM UP, PUTTING THE REMAINING ONES IN RESERVATIONS, OR BANTUSTANS, OR MASS OPEN AIR PRISONS (LIKE GAZA AND OTHER HELLHOLES), OR REFUGEE CAMPS, TORTURE OR MASS STARVE THEM OR CUT OFF THEIR UTILITIES FOR RESISTING, DESTROY THEIR SOCIETY, HUMILIATE THEM, SAY THAT *WE'RE* "THE SUPERIOR/CHOSEN PEOPLE" WHICH GIVES US THE RIGHT -- AND ALL THE NATIVES CAN BE IS **UNGRATEFUL**!! _____ --Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA

sock puppet  06/03/2008 02:29 PM Report

J.R. - You silver tongued rascal. I'm convinced. Those damned sneaky Paleatinians are ungrateful and selfish. Pick me up and we'll go down together to get our visas. Ahh the good life. Can't wait. I know it will be better than a Corona beer commercial, the way you describe it. And free electricity to boot! WOW!!!

J.R. Writer  06/03/2008 12:33 PM Report

What I do not fully understand with the majority of the comments, is that do people not see how much humanitarian aid and free things the Israeli government is providing for the new and independent Palestinian state. Other than food and money, free electricity is constantly lighting up Palestinian streets. Israel provides money for the Gaza strip all the while Hamas denies that Israel even exists. Also when Hamas or Palestinian groups attack Israeli civilians, nobody makes a peep, to retaliate Israel slows down some of the electricity and humanitarian funds it supplies, then Hamas cries foul, and broadcasts Israels evil to the world, and it is people like your selves that see this and agree. I do not know how many of you have actually seen any of this first hand but, i believe you should go to Israel and see that t is the only jewel in all of the middle east, while other countries oppress their citizens it is obvious there is only one free country.

P.S. Please stop with the Zionist speech and also stop reading David Duke, he is not that bright. And, Charlie Rose is one of the best shows on television.

J.R. Writer  06/03/2008 12:32 PM Report

What I do not fully understand with the majority of the comments, is that do people not see how much humanitarian aid and free things the Israeli government is providing for the new and independent Palestinian state. Other than food and money, free electricity is constantly lighting up Palestinian streets. Israel provides money for the Gaza strip all the while Hamas denies that Israel even exists. Also when Hamas or Palestinian groups attack Israeli civilians, nobody makes a peep, to retaliate Israel slows down some of the electricity and humanitarian funds it supplies, then Hamas cries foul, and broadcasts Israels evil to the world, and it is people like your selves that see this and agree. I do not know how many of you have actually seen any of this first hand but, i believe you should go to Israel and see that t is the only jewel in all of the middle east, while other countries oppress their citizens it is obvious there is only one free country.

P.S. Please stop with the Zionist speech and also stop reading David Duke, he is not that bright.

Thomas Hazard  06/03/2008 11:43 AM Report

Why do we keep talking about religions and politics when the problems of the Mid east are all tied to oil and the exploitation and control of the resources located under them? I'm tired of the BS.

"Given how OILCO assets in OPEC countries were expropriated back in the 70's, why didn't they diversify back then into the kinds of diversified energy companies they knew America needed and are now earnestly trying to become?"

The oilco's helped to create the messes we are living in places surrounding the Persian Gulf. The Cold War was also part of it!

sock puppet  06/03/2008 11:12 AM Report

Royston, perhaps the answer lies in your own words, "The creation of the state of Israel was a necessity born out of the fact that there was no place for Jews to go, as no country wanted them." Their conduct under their own rules (kill rate of 30:1 and higher) doesn't do much to improve their 'being wanted.' Sadly, Israel and Iraq are two colossal geopolitical blunders both born of western arrogance. And many jingos would love to add a third "I" for Iran. Remember "I" told you so! So an apocalyptic end is somehow to be dismissed? Our species is too challenged to survive. The three 'I's are in process of confirming this. . . . . Shalom, eh?!

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 07:12 AM Report

Comment by Lawrence Arsenault on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 05:57 AM: "For instance, wouldn't it have made for a more lively and informative discussion if one of the guests was a well spoken person from Hamas and the other a well spoken American Jew? Come on Charlie, we know you can do better." ____IF CHARLIE ROSE HAD A WELL-SPOKEN PERSON FROM HAMAS ON, HE'D BE OFF THE AIR THE NEXT DAY -- AND HE *KNOWS* THIS. EVER HEAR OF THE ISRAEL LOBBY?____ Charlie occasionally (but not recently) has Columbia University Palestinian Professor Rashid Khalidi on to (when Rashid is not fundamentally criticizing the *Palestinian* people!) fuss over the details of Camp David I, Oslo, Camp David II, Taba, etc. -- and whatever the latest name and protocol is for '*STALL* and *STEAL*' by Israel against the Palestinian people -- in a 'debate' with Zionist/Israel/Jewish Lobby (and former U.S. govt) official Martin Indyk, who spins the usual Israeli cliches and negative stereotypes against the Palestinian people. But, even Khalidi knows, if he wants to be invited back on Charlie's show, not to talk about THE FUNDAMENTAL IMMORALITY of the UK/U.S./West creating and/or imposing the state of a foreign Jewish alien population upon the native Palestinian people. It's NOT AN OVERSIGHT/ACCIDENT that you don't/seldom hear any number of well-spoken alternative voices on the Charlie Rose show, or on the PBS Newshour, or on any other PBS flagship programs (like Frontline).

Anton Grambihler  06/03/2008 07:11 AM Report

Were the Europeans being treated like the Palestine People are currently being treated before the Nazis took control? It seems like many of the people in the top levels of the United States and Israeli governments approving of the illegal Israeli activities are the children of political refuges.

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 06:23 AM Report

When HENRY KISSINGER starts to admire someone you know they *are* going to Hell. (Kissinger avoids going to certain countries in even WESTERN Europe for fear he might be arrested, under international law, and tried as A WAR CRIMINAL.)

Lawrence Arsenault  06/03/2008 05:57 AM Report

I like the Charlie Rose show but at times I do wish he'd get off the over-beaten path. To have two intellectual Jews, one an English historian and the other an American ex-Washingtonian who thinks Kissinger was a great diplomat, discuss American foriegn policy, is to hear the same old, failed, story rehashed. I will say there was one slight difference in tone, probably thanks to President Carter: the guests did take mild issue with Israeli settlements and gave a hint of recognition to Palistinians. But essentially it was the same old talk.

Nobody asks, "Why?" or "Should we ...?" It's only "How." State a self-serving policy and "how" to fulfill it. Worse, it sees any opposition to this policy as dangerous to American interests, when opposition may mean that a country or a culture demands to be recognized and treated equally in terms of their culture and their assets. For instance, both his guests focused their discussion on Iraq as a flawed attempt to bring Democracy to the Middle East. Does anybody believe that anymore? They won't admit that if there wasn't oil there, our interest in the region would be minimal at most.

I think a much better interview would have been two opposing views - not debate, because debates are essentially worthless - but discuss opposing views. For instance, wouldn't it have made for a more lively and informative discussion if one of the guests was a well spoken person from Hamas and the other a well spoken American Jew?

Come on Charlie, we know you can do better.

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 05:44 AM Report

Comment by Royston on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 04:28 AM [defending Israel\: "They [Israelis\ do the brute work that the US cannot get caught doing." And Comment by Royston on Tuesday, Jun 3 at 03:46 AM: "who would do our dirty work for us???" ___ARE YOU CLAIMING, Royston, THAT 'JEWS ARE A PARTICULARLY NASTY AND USEFUL PEOPLE WHO ARE PARTICULARLY GOOD AT DOING OUR "DIRTY WORK" FOR US IN THE MIDDLE EAST???'___

Joseph Anderson, Berkeley, CA  06/03/2008 05:17 AM Report

Two more establishment idiots on the Charlie Rose Show (if Americans weren't generally so dum about the world as to take these two guests, and other establishment guests, so seriously, pundits like these two guests would be A *COMEDY* ACT): THE SAME KIND OF PEOPLE/THINKING THAT GOT US INTO THIS MESS (whether in Iraq, before in Iran, before in Lebanon, and elsewhere in the Middle East, and in many ways it began with the imposition of a foreign, mostly *EUROPEAN*, alien population and state of Israel, forced down in the middle of the Arab world) -- "THE SUPERIOR 'PEACE-LOVING' WHITE PEOPLE OF, ESPECIALLY, THE U.S./UK (and our poodle, lapdog and deputy allies) VS. THE INFERIOR 'VIOLENCE-LOVING' SWARTHY PEOPLE OF THE MIDEAST". The very prominent African American Georgetown University professor and author Michael Eric Dyson once said, "NO BLACK PERSON [not even Condoleeza Rice or Collin Powell\ IN AMERICA WOKE UP ON 9-11 WONDERING, 'WHY DO THEY [the A-rabs/whomever\ HATE US [the U.S.\?'" (You know, those swarthy people just *hate*: they, unlike Timothy McVeigh, don't *need* a reason -- they just *hate*! Why to even *ask* for a reason is UN-AMERICAN!) And to the often claimed white-American statement, "Israel is our only true friend in the Middle East", is the rebuttal, "But before Israel we (the U.S.) *had no* enemies in the Middle East." Our whole Mideast policy is centered around *Israel* -- and what *it* wants (attack Iraq, attack Iran, attack Lebanon, attack Syria, etc.; give it more weapons and give it more BILLIONS OF U.S. TAX DOLLARS EVERY YEAR!). And then Charlie's *two* Jewish guests (at least this time such guests *disclosed* they were pro-Israel/Zionist Jews, like Henry Kissinger) talk about "the great cause of democracy in the Middle East"! You mean like *ZIONISM*?: gi'me a break! -- a semitheocratic, religioethnic, racially-defined, predominantly European, racially exclusivist, ideologically Jewish apartheid, colonial state in the Middle East. And then after forcing down this foreign state (with the help of other essentially white governments, especially like the U.S./UK) on the heads of the native Palestinian people, pro-Israel Jews racistly sweat over "the demographic bomb" (or, as Charlie said, "Lots of people fear the demographics"): i.e., "TOO MANY PALESTINIANS!" -- JUST LIKE, AT TIMES, *PARTS OF* *CHRISTIAN* EUROPE (or, decades ago, anti-Semitic white-American neighborhoods) ONCE WORRIED ABOUT "TOO MANY JEWS!" AHHH, THE ONCE *SOMETIMES* BRUTALLY OPPRESSED NOW BECOME THE DECADES-LONG BRUTAL OPPRESSORS (EVEN BEFORE AND JUST AFTER THE NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS) -- like many European groups claiming brutal oppression back home, going out to the non-European world toting the Bible and the gun and in turn brutally oppressing others, and saying that "God" gave them the right and citing "God" as their real estate agent. If *European* people wanted to atone for *European* sins against *European* Jews, then why didn't *European* people (whether in Europe, Canada, Australia, or the U.S.) give *European* Jews "a homeland" in *EUROPE* or one of those other predominantly white countries!!??? Why force the Palestinian people -- to this day -- to pay for *European* crimes? And now Israel forces Germany to politically and financially help Jews brutally oppress and ethnically cleanse *another* people: the Palestinians. Let's see, "C" is forced to pay for something -- with their land, homes, and livelihood -- that "A" did to "B": that only makes sense if "A" and even "B" are *BOTH* racist! And how could the Jews, who have had their homes taken away so often in history, go take away the homes of another -- *3rd* party -- people? People (Jews) have a right to flee oppression in other countries: they (Jews) don't have a right to flee to another country and ethnically cleanse the native inhabitants (the Palestinian people), steal/dispossess their land and destroy their homes, take the place over and impose their own foreign (Jewish) government/state! The GROSS HYPOCRISY STINKS to high Heaven.

Anton Grambihler  06/03/2008 05:08 AM Report

What is fascinating is that Israel attacked the United States ship USS Liberty and it was not consider an act of War and John McCainâ??s Dad John McCain Jr. may have been involved in a cover up.

Royston  06/03/2008 04:36 AM Report

Anton Grambihler please do me a favor. Go watch the Hills or some show to that effect. Charlie Rose is my favorite show on television, because he is a refuge for intelligent people. I came here hoping for an interesting debate, all I got was a bunch of worthless answers by people who have no idea whatsoever on this fascinating subject. I am an objective watcher trying to work towards a greater solution. People like you have already made up your minds before you know the facts. The Hills, I highly recommend it for you.

Royston  06/03/2008 04:28 AM Report

So j cohen if Jews having no place to go was a false story please tell me which countries were letting them in? Europe, absolutely not, America had quotas? It was a quick solution to a messy problem. Your next sentence is that they live fine in the vast majority of the world. Back up, you just moved forward 60 years. I wasn't talking about the present was I? You say you have never heard an argument to why they are vitally important? Are you serious? Do you think what happened in Lebanon recently only served Israels interests? They are more vital than ever before. They do they brute work that the US cannot get caught doing...

j cohen  06/03/2008 04:15 AM Report

@ Royston

To say that the Jews had no place to go, is pretty much a canard. Jews live their lives just fine in the vast majority of the world. Granted, Nazi Germany was an aberration to use an understatement. The Israeli problem is that the British had no right to hand the country of one people that lived there continuously for thousands of years to a bunch of foreigners. It was the last death throws of Victorian colonialism. The argument that Jewish people anywhere by virtue of their religion have a "birth right" to some country that they, nor any one in their family has any record of living in, is specious. Humans evolved in Africa, but that doesn't mean that I have "birth right" to evict and and live in someone's home in Ethiopia.

The argument that Israel is "vitally important" to American interests in the region is interesting. In 30 years, I've never actually heard the argument to why they're "vitally important." Support for Israel is "vitallyy important" from a domestic politics both among fundamentalist Christians and Jews, but on a geopolitical stage I don't exactly see it. American, and not to put too fine of a point on it, the world's interests in the region lie in exactly one thing: the continuing flow of oil, which Israel has none. That's it. Prior to the discovery of oil in Persian Gulf region, the Middle East was ignored just like Sub-Saharan Africa. And when the oil is gone, it will be ignored once again. The security threat originating in the region has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the United States' refusal to criticize any and all Israeli policies is the root problem. Arguably, if you could turn back time and change the votes on United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 back in 1947, then the security threat wouldn't exist.

Of course that can't happen. It's been 60 years. It's too late undo the mistakes of the past. Those responsible are now all dead. We're stuck in a bad with no good solutions. But to deny the very roots of the problem, only ensures that no solution will come.

Anton Grambihler  06/03/2008 04:08 AM Report

The United States must stop being a Hypocrite and become a Nation of Laws ENFORCED EQUALLY on all people. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, the United States put together a Collation and forced Iraq back to its International boundaries; therefore the United States must put together a Collation and force Israel back to its 1948 International boundaries. These boundaries were created when the United Nations took land away from the Palestine People and used it to create Israel. Israel has yet to abide by the conditions of this resolution and should not be considered to exist until it does.

The United States must stop all aid to Israel until it signs the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, eliminates all its WMD, and signs a constitution which states that the Palestine People have the right of return.

There also needs to be a through investigation of Supreme Court Justice Brandeis, who was the most prominent American Zionist, involvement in convincing President Wilson to turn a European War into WWI by declaring War on Germany. How much United States Blood and Treasure has been expended since then for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine?

Royston  06/03/2008 03:46 AM Report

I am shocked by how stupid some of the below comments are. The Arab-Israeli problem, is probably the most complexed debate in the world right now. With far more question than will ever have answers. Simpletons such as RE Mant and sock puppet, (whose names alone show you that they should not be allowed to digest this show with comment).RE Mant your comment that we should stop supporting Israel, Hmmmm. I think there is a knock at your door, the 'INTELLIGENCE" police are coming for you! Israel is extremely important to US interests in the Middle east. If we were not to support them, who would be our eyes and ears and more importantly who would do our dirty work for us??? Saudi Arabia? To Sock Puppet, The creation of the state of Israel was a necessity born out of the fact that there was no place for Jews to go, as no country wanted them. If you want to be a doomsday instead of a constructive thinker, go dig a hole and hide there till the end of days. I made sure before I started to comment on this very difficult subject that I did my research. Maybe some of you should do the same.

David Hamber  06/03/2008 03:46 AM Report

Whenever I see the overzealous attacks on Israeli policies and the Israeli state on this board by people who claim to be "progressive", I wonder why they seem so eager to support a movement whose officials boldly and shamelessly make the following statements:

"The goal of the Zionist movement is to establish a state in Palestine, which would become a base for ruling the entire world. Its other goals are to destroy the religions it opposes, particularly Islam; to corrupt values and become a base for ruling the entire world. Its other goals are to destroy the religions it opposes, particularly Islam; to corrupt values and morality; to spread permissiveness and sex; and to generate moral decline."-Saleh Riqab (Hamas deputy minister of religious endowment).

"Palestine will be regained only by fighting the Zionists. I'm not saying 'fighting the Jews,' because these people are a bunch of plundering Zionist gangs, who came at the command of Britain, and later of America and Europe. I believe that the only way to liberate Palestine is by jihad...If killing the Zionist Jews, the Americans, the English, and the French in Palestine, in Iraq, and in Afghanistan is considered terrorism - I am the number one terrorist." -Muhammad Nimr Al-Zaghmout (head of the Islamic Palestinian Council in Lebanon).

"Everything we see in the Arab region and around the world - the evil of the Jews, their deceit, their cunningness, their warmongering, their control of the world, and their contempt and scorn for all the peoples of the world, which they consider to be animals, cockroaches, lizards, snakes, and despicable maggots that need to be stepped on â?? Like [Rabbi\ Ovadia [Yosef\ saidâ?¦ The Jews say all these things, especially in the first of these protocols."-Atallah Abu Al-Subh (Hamas Culture Minister).

Thomas Hazard  06/03/2008 01:34 AM Report

I prefer the Noam Chomsky/Jimmy Carter analysis of the Middle East Messes. Your two guests esp Mr Miller seems to have an unadmitted bias to the Jewish side and his efforts obviously have "not" been successful or helpful. I think you have slid Mr. Rose tooo far pro establishment and you have lost the freshness of being a true journalist inviting and interviewing people who are anti-establishment. Also your Q's seem more directed at showing that you understand the situation! Your best interviews have always been asking Q's that make your guests squirm or sweat in the chair. Have you become too Wahintonian?