Charlie Rose

Richard Burke  08/14/2008 07:13 PM Report

Why shouldn't religions deserve a critical look, especially ones like Mormonism, which is only 180 years old and extremely well documented. Mormons were compulsive record keepers. However, the leaders of the Mormon Church keep the most detailed documentation locked away, and only present a version that is "faith promoting." (This in itself, makes the religion very suspect, and makes it deserving of its cult status.) What are they hiding? We already know enough history to get a strong sense that the Prophet seems to get a "revelation" when pressure mounts against the group (Statehood for Utah as a time to outlaw polygamy or not allowing Blacks as members). They are still in the dark ages about gays. None of the "miracles" in their history have the transcendent beauty of a water walking Jesus or Moses parting the red sea.

No, instead, we have a very lusty Joseph Smith, very much loving ladies of all ages, which turns into a "revelation" because God wants Mormons to replicate faster. Right! Maybe a few thousand years ago, something like that would seem plausible, but come on, although God may work in mysterious ways, could that REALLY be one of them, in nineteenth century Palmyra, NY.

steve shumaker  04/30/2008 05:25 AM Report

After seeing and hearing all the usual pundits, reporters and ill-informed opportunists rave on about the Wright/Obama fiasco, how refreshing it was to see Sally so articulately express her sadness (and mine) over the direction this issue has taken. Thank you, Sally, from a 67 yr old white male who was raised in a horribly racist Texas, and later almost equally racist southern Ohio environment. Ohio

Steve Shumaker

Long Beach Ca.

sandy  04/30/2008 12:54 AM Report

RE SALLY QUINN

I SO TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH HER!! I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT WRIGHT DIDN'T MEAN TO DOWNGRADE AND DISRESPECT OBAMA. SOMEONE SUCH AS WRIGHT WHO IS SO INCREDIBLY ARTICULATE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SAYING AND COMMUNICATING. INSTEAD OF FEELING INCREDIBLY PROUD OF THIS YOUNG RESPECTFUL MAN, HE TOTALLY "THREW OBAMA UNDER THE BUS". WHY HE DID IT? WHO CARES? SELFISH SELF CENTEREDNESS. I BELIEVE WRIGHT TO BE AN INCREDIBLY GOOD MAN WHO HAS BEEN READING HIS OWN TESTIMONIALS FOR TOO LONG. I AM SO INCREDIBLY SAD THAT THIS STUPIDNESS COULD SINK THIS CAMPAIGN.

Laura Davis  12/15/2007 05:34 AM Report

I would be the last person to suggest that any presidential candidate should be rejected on the basis of his or her religious beliefs. There are some beliefs, however, that are so patently absurd and egregious that one would question the sanity of anyone who subscribes to them. If such a person is in the private domain even the most absurd religious beliefs are harmless. If, however, a person holding such beliefs is elevated to the position of leader of the free world that is another matter entirely. What can one make of the intellect or sanity of anyone that believes that the Garden of Eden was in Jackson County, Missouri, of all places? What is the judgment one can expect of someone that believes that a day will come when the capital of the world, the new Jerusalem, will be founded in Jackson County, Missouri? I could go one, but the litany of absudities inherent in the Mormon faith would take pages to describe. If Governor Romney were a secular Mormon then we could dismiss this issue. In his recent speech, however, and on other occasions he has told us he believes literally in every aspect of the Mormon doctrine. Anyone that holds such beliefs has to be regarded as irrational and unsuitable for the highest office in the land. I would feel the same about anyone, Mormon or otherwise, that believes all the absurdities of the various faiths. While John Kennedy was a practicing Catholic, this was limited to observing the external rituals of the religion without bothering much about its absurdities. This does not apply to Governor Romney and he should stay in private life where he cannot do much harm.

Gina  12/10/2007 04:46 PM Report

Richard Burke, I do agree completely. Very good summation. It is meant by GOD and born within our nature to question anything that seems suspect to us individually. It is how we form our opinions through reason. Yes Palmyra, New York and their annual Pageant in which over the years I was in the past invited to this event. I have never been to this pageant but as I understand Joseph Smith, one day was inspired by GOD as he was hanging on a tree upside down from a branch and duly was inspired. It is understandable that people would question, should question with bias & unbias (if that is possible) unmitigated objectivity because each one of us has our own journeys we must take to find and connect to our own inner spirituality as to what makes sense within our spirits in connectivity to the world around us, which brings us to the answers we seek. Not meaning to be philosophical but is it not true that it is a singular journey for each of us to take and how we all find ourselves by coming into our own. No one else can take that journey with you.

Martin R.  12/10/2007 12:31 AM Report

Sadly it seems that many of you are participating in further attacks on Mormonism and how absurd its founding appears to you and how its foudning prophet appears to be a charlatan to you. So what? It's their religion. It's what they believe. You could go down the line with any religion and pick apart its precepts and miracles as absurdities. Moses and a burning bush, parting the red sea. Come on. Jesus walking on water and rising from the dead. Get real. And on and on. As long as they are not hurting anywone and by their acts it seems they are helping people, then who cares? It's called freedom of religion.

Cookie  12/09/2007 01:56 PM Report

I find it humorous that the same prejudiced religious "right"s who reject anybody who does not believe in their rigid, narrow minded way are somehow expected to overcome their ignorance to vote for a Mormon. Romney alienated free thinkers aka liberals (the only ones he had a chance at adding to his votes) to go after those who will never vote for him even if he becomes the candidate. Live by the religious sword, die by it.

Richard Burke  12/09/2007 12:29 PM Report

In today's (12/9/07) NY Times Maureen Dowd writes an editorial, "MITT'S NO JFK," where she interviews John Krakauer about his reaction to Mitt's speech, and she quotes some of the passages from his book on Mormonism -- the same one I mentioned in my previous post -- UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN. It is a fascinating well-written book I highly recommend. It was denounced by the LDS church, for a few minor inaccuracies, but in general is a well-documented, and startlingly balanced and candid look at the history of a religion. To correct some misinformation from another poster, Joseph Smith himself instituted polygamy, since he loved the ladies and couldn't stop marrying ones as young as 14 years old. Polygamy became canonized as Section 132 (Doctrines and Covenants), after Joseph Smith had a divine revelation from God (who else?) in 1831 that plural marriage was acceptable for Mormon men who wanted it. We know from personal letters that are a part of historical record, his first wife was steamed when he began taking all these wives. Thus, the "divine revelation." Of course, women were not allowed to be unfaithful or take other husbands. In spite of opposition and even persecution by the public, polygamy grew from being "ify" to "virtuous" to being outlawed in 1890 by Woodruff, the fourth president of the LDS Church. No doubt another divine revelation, which happened to coincide with Utah getting statehood a few years later. (The opposition to statehood was largely built on the Mormon's practice of polygamy.) If this all sounds like a farce, do your own research in wikipedia or any book on the history of the Mormon church. I really don't think there is anything remotely comparable in the New Testament, to the high comedy of Joseph Smith (and some of the leaders who followed) and the founding of the LDS church. Dowd also points out how that Mormons use a distinctly modified version of the New Testament.

Mormons, like members of most religious sects, believe they are the "chosen ones" and members of the "one true faith." For Mitt to group himself with other Christians, and bring up IN GOD WE TRUST that sprung up in the McCarthy era, not by our founding fathers, is pure political ploy. It is perhaps apt, since Mormons have a history of making concessions. That's obviously why they dropped polygamy. They had enough of persecution and wanted to thrive, and they have. However, Mitt's chances for the nomination are sinking every day.

S Benn  12/08/2007 04:23 PM Report

For all the atheists responding to this I just want to say there is more evidence of a Creator then for Evolution. Not one proven fact of science disagrees with fact taught in the Bible. If you will just study you will find the truth and will realize how wrong you are. You are in the minority and not the believers and there is a reason! Tom O'Malley your the one who has believed the big lie of evolution which continues to be disproven by true science all the time. Find the evidences on the internet if you are not afraid to look.

S Benn  12/08/2007 04:14 PM Report

Mitt Romney's religion is not why he is falling in the polls! It is his stand for abortion, illegals and gay rights as governor and most of his life. You cannot change your stand just to be president and that is what he did about 2 years ago. The problem is Huckaby has a record of raising taxes, the roads in his state are terrible. Education certainly was not a priorty and he gave pardons to more serious offenders than anyone in Arkansas history including a man who killed someone about a year after the pardon. Why did he do all these things if he is so conservative?

Amy  12/08/2007 02:03 PM Report

As George Bush has so amply demonstrated, overly religious candidates may end up posing more of a problem, as president, than those who have a more skeptical nature. Problem solving skills and the ability to receive and and act on information that is countrary to one's previously held opinions, is the mark of a great leader. Unfortunately, very religious people often have difficulty with being open to new ideas. The stem cell issue, is one example. Wouldn't it be a refreshing change, if debate questioners would ask the candidates if they considered them selves to be rationalists?

Gina  12/08/2007 10:40 AM Report

I can understand why there would be those who might connect the Mormon faith to that of a cultish type. First of all I would say that I found Mitt Romney to be very articulate and inviting in his speech, the things he said seemed to resonate with me to be quite sincere and forthright which I found very appealing. I donâ??t know ANYTHING about what one author said about Adam and Mary, I would have to research that. But I can say that I myself have attended a couple of Mormon services locally in my city about 10 years ago on the invitation of a friend and the one thing I picked up that I liked very much about the Mormons is the fact that they are some of the nicest, clean-cut and decent people you would ever want to meet. The Mormons are totally non-pressured tactics in inviting people to study and join their church and was a major factor for me in deciding to visit with a friend. The reason why I did not continue attending their church is for 2 reasons. Although the Mormon do believe that (Jesus) is the (Son of GOD), the Mormon bible is a completely differently bible than the Christian bible, structured differently, their prophets are different than ours for the most part and the stories are not the same as in King James plus the faith was founded by a man named Joseph Smith who was born in 1805 in Vermont and died in 1844. The second thing is this, the Mormons believed that at the very (head) leader of their church posesses special powers that perhaps could be interpreted to another world beyond the one we live to the non-physical world which I do not believe. So it is not so far fetched that people could confuse the two. Not to mention the break-off from the original faith that promoted multiple wives and such to appease the mainstream in the United States of its time. No I do not believe in the Mormon faith, but even so, I would say that the Mormon people overall are a decent people.

infidel  12/08/2007 04:16 AM Report

My religion is better than yours! This is Religulous. Pope said recently that only Catholics are 'real' Christians and all other denominations are 'fake' and are going to hell. Evangelicals think of Mormons as a cult. Muslims see all non-Muslims as nonbelievers. Everybody thinks that Scientologists are cuckoo. If Joseph Smith found those gold tablets 2,000 years ago it would not be a big deal to swallow the ridiculous story by Evangelical hypocrites today. All religions are the same: sell wishful thinking + fear and people will buy it - big $$$. Who cares in which invisible friend our next president believes. How do you decide if organization is a cult or religion? Don't drink Kool-aid. Your religion is as bad as any other. Thank your god for separation of state and church and freedom of speech.

Amy  12/08/2007 04:07 AM Report

In Michigan during the sixties, Governor George Romney's Mormanism was not at all a problem, possibly in large part, because he didn't wear his religion on his sleeve. While he never attemped to hide his faith, there was never any question, but that George Romney was a modern day man, who would run the State, much the way he ran American Motors, as a rational, enlightened, person, who sensibly, viewed his religion as a private affair ...... It no doubt helped, GR that until relatively recently, it was considered to be a faux pas, to spout off about oneâ??s belief system.

Jonathan  12/07/2007 06:51 PM Report

Could the "Party of Lincoln" even elect Lincoln were he running today, or would he be eliminated by his views on religion? One has to wonder if Republicans are managing to weed out those best equipped for the presidency in favor of those best equipped to engage in pandering.

Richard Burke  12/07/2007 04:06 PM Report

I was raised in a Christian Evangelical/Fundamentalist home where we were taught that Mormonism was a Satanic Cult. As an adult, I couldn't be farther away from the mindset of how I was raised, because I'm an agnostic and very curious about other religions. Buddhism and reincarnation make the most sense, but not enough for me to throw myself into it. Because I have a friend who is a Mormon, I read a few books about Mormonism, including Krakauer's UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN which was my favorite. If you read about Joseph Smith's early life, with his dabbling with peep stones and effort to be successful before the big breakthrough moment with the golden tablets, his whole experience of founding this new religion seems almost laughable, mainly because of the time period, the situation, and the banality of the culture in which it took place. It makes visitations from God to people such as Oral Roberts, almost seem plausible in comparison. (I expect will have a new Christian sect after his death, "The Orals." For anyone who isn't born into Mormonism, I don't see how they can adopt it, if they read the history of it. I assume most Mormon converts do not start with the history of the religion but instead what they want out of it; that they want to be clean, decent, prosperous people, like most Mormons.

Obviously, it is somehow much easier to accept the story of Christ, rather than this Mormon permutation of Christianity, because it was so long ago, and in a foreign culture, and therefore mysterious. With beliefs that are ancient, and have been around for centuries, you can't be forced to take a good hard look at the facts, because there are so few details and facts. You know what you are accepting is on faith, not on facts. (Or, you get the people holding their Bible up and saying things like, "all the facts I needs in here, and God said it and that's that") With Mormons, their history is all too well documented, recent, and real.

As far as the average Christian voter goes, they know squat about Mormonism but will ally themselves wholeheartedly with anyone who shares most of their beliefs. I feel that widespread ignorance about Mormonism will shield Mitt from losing votes over it. If he wins the nomination, he's going to suffer more from simply being a Republican.

Steve  12/07/2007 03:03 PM Report

One again Meacham shows his appalling ignorance with regard to Mormonism. The Council of Nicea has nothing to do with it. Many Christians especially Catholics find Mormonism as heresy. Mormon's maintain that Adam had sex with the "Virgin" Mary thus producing the Christ child. I like Meacham and subscribe to his publication Newsweek. But he has made a fool of himself by referencing the council of Nicea as he did in a previous Charlie interview. I have nothing against Romney and wish him all the best in his pursuit of the White house. But Christians find his beliefs offense to their own faith.

Meacham Needs to do some reading.

skeptic  12/07/2007 12:23 PM Report

Martin - Spoken like a TRUE Christian!!

Martin Ryan  12/07/2007 03:37 AM Report

Charlie,

You really disappointed me tonight. I do not know Sally Quinn's views or work but you let her get away with some real thinly veiled rips on Mormonism tonight regarding its "cult-like" status and her clear and obvious prejudice against that religion and against Romney. Charlie, do you ever challenge your guests directly? Maybe you should when they make outlandish statements. You are much better than that. And while you are at, please, please, give Jon Meacham a cup of coffee and wake him up before he comes on your show. Below are my comments to Mrs. Quinn that I posted on her website. I belive she really showed an ugly side that passed for legitimate journalism because it had the credibility to go unchecked on your show. Get with it Charlie!

"Mrs. Quinn,

Your interview on Charlie Rose tonight was a disgrace. Your comments about Mormonism only seemed to perpetuate the stereotypes about that religion and other faiths that you and your illustrious panel profess to disavow. Your thinly veiled suspicion and distrust for the Mormon religion came out quite clearly. You cleverly insinuated that Mormonism is a kind of cult whose members defer allegience completely to their prophet and shouldn't that question be raised about Mr. Romney. Wasn't that the exact type of ridiculous questioning that the "much more inclusive in his speech" President Kennedy had to endure? And if you bring it up again as you did maybe we should ask it of all the candidates and of all public officials. After all, the Jews are the chosen people, Christians submit themselves completely to thier Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Muslims pray towards Mecca, and on and on. I am a Christian raised in the Catholic faith and I could care 2 cents about Mit Romney and his religion. His faith and its adherents have certainly distinguished themselves as great citizens. Who gives a rip? You certainly seem to. You must be a plant from one of the campaigns. I thought Mr. Romney aquitted himself well and actually am miffed that he feels he has get up there and explain that he will be a good and loyal American. Give me a break. It's because of phobic hack reporters like you that he has to. And what troubled me more is that neither Mr. Rose, Mr. Halpern, nor Mr. Meacham called you on your not so subtle religious intolerance. They all just smiled nicely and let you ramble on with your pablum. And I do mean ramble. Speed it up a bit Sally. And while you're at, please, someone please, give Jon Meacham a cup of coffee or slap him in the head. I would have fallen asleep while he was talking if you hand't of gotten me so worked up. You owe Romney and all those cultist Mormons an apology."

skeptic  12/07/2007 12:58 AM Report

Eric Carter - Well said. Nice points, cogent and highly important. Hope Mitt reads them.

Eric Carter  12/07/2007 12:50 AM Report

I hope you will invite Brooke Allen, author of "Moral Minority," to your show to help put Romney's speech into the context of what separation of church and state meant to the writers of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

As one of your guests observed on the show tonight, a central theme of Romney's speech was a personal declaration of communion, of fellowship, between himself and other Americans of faith, to the apparent exclusion of those who profess no religious faith. To make his point, Romney stated in his speech that the founders of the government of the US "did not countenance the elimination of religion from the public square. We are a nation 'under God,' and in God we do trust."

As is the case with far too many of our politicians, Romney's understanding of what the key architects of our government actually intended the role of religion to be in the political life of the country is misguided.

Brooke Allen shows quite clearly in "Moral Minority," quoting at length from the founders, that Jefferson, Madison, and the other key founders intended that religion be kept completely out of government affairs, and that citizens be treated equally by the government regardless of their faith - or lack of faith.

As Allen writes, "In God we Trust" and "One Nation Under God" were entered into our public life generations after the founding of the nation. The fact that the name of God is not invoked anywhere in the Constitution was not an oversight. The delegates at the Constitutional Convention of 1787 actually decided against having prayers to open the sessions. As President, Jefferson even refused to proclaim any official days of thanksgiving or other spiritual observances because he felt so strongly about separation of church and state.

Allen also writes that there is good reason to question whether many of the founders were really Christians in more than name. Washington refused to take communion and is said to not have mentioned Jesus Christ in any of his several thousand letters or his will. Jefferson felt Jesus was a gifted philosopher and moral leader but absolutely rejected his divinity.

skeptic  12/07/2007 12:41 AM Report

Sally Quinns comments resonated. Meacham's not so much. Romneys request that we be tolerant of his beliefs is disingenuous. Presidents beliefs are essential as measurements of the quality of their thought processes as well as their characters. Mormonism is too fatuous to endure even a limited amount of thought. For instance: Devout Mormons believe that in 1827 in the town of Palmyra, New York, 21-year-old Joseph Smith dug up a set of golden tablets that contained the seeds of a new religion. According to Smith, he was guided to that spot by an angel who appeared to him in a vision. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Gold, not clay or stone. So is man or god being pandered to? Conveniently, some angel named Moroni(?) - surrogate Moses? - confiscated the tablets so we apparently have to relegate their validity to faith. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Romneys that gullible, he may be susceptible to other specious assertions by types such as EVEN Cheney, Shrub et al. Our thought process and beliefs are intertwined. Which ipso facto makes him suspect for a president, and innocuous (sort of) as a private citizen. If our president is a Mormon, it demeans us all. We need quality of character which is an oxymoron with anyone that is fatuous enough to buy Mormonism. We need better. Especially now.

Tom O'Malley  12/07/2007 12:14 AM Report

Can you imagine the incongruity of historians 50 or 100 years from now when they have to plough through the irrational and superstitious belief of so many Americans in the political process. The spiritual troglodytes have taken over the agenda and no one has the guts to call them on their mythological bullshit. Where are the honest and tough questions. A digression; your softball interview with Rove was nauseating. You let the master of the BIG LIE walk all over you.