Charlie Rose

SharkswithfrikingLazers  08/07/2012 01:44 AM Report

Andrew, how will you print a lot of money for the Eurozone crisis?

Counterfeiting?

SharkswithfrikingLazers  08/07/2012 01:41 AM Report

Sprint has a market cap of $13B: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?d=t&s=S

His idea is to buy it and put $50B in it?

Where did he get the $50B number and what does he want to install?

I like Google's idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fiber

SharkswithfrikingLazers  08/07/2012 01:33 AM Report

Yes, probably Elon Musk over Larry Page for Steve Jobs II.

Elon is very sexy with his car and rocket ship.

He was good on "60 Minutes" and also in "Revenge of the Electric Car".

Some say he is the basis for Tony Stark alias "Iron Man".

SharkswithfrikingLazers  08/07/2012 01:27 AM Report

$117B IN CASH!!!

Apple closed its record June quarter with $117 billion in cash reserves, up from $110 billion last quarter.

Apple closed with a market cap of 561.90B. Dell had only 20.23B and HP closed at 35.46B.

WOW APPLE!

Look at the list of countries and their GDPs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29#List

Apple is a nice sized country.

Ellen_Dibble  08/06/2012 12:23 PM Report

Gelles, wow, you have lots of ideas. Just to start with the output-based money, instead of debt, it sounds as though debt, national debt, would be construed as investment. I.e., China has a vested interest in the United States making good on the money China has put forward.

This gets tangled up with trade policies, tariffs, tax loopholes, and so on. I have a hard enough time with US law, not even considering laws (and legislatures that create them) in 600 countries, or whatever it is. I suppose corporations consider the more corrupt the legislature, the easier it is to get traction.

As to wiki policy, this conjures up a lobby that transcends K street, that is cloud-based, and so cannot sit down with brandy and canapes, to coordinate all the interests. However, it will digitally coordinate policy. I'm pretty sure this is not what you mean, but it conjures a citizen-based wiki-lobby. Interesting.

As to Amazon and GoDaddy, I don't know what GoDaddy is, and I do know people (two) who self-publish using Amazon as a distributor with medium to fine success, but they're doing that for a modicum of financial returns and for friendly networking, not for political/policy reasons. I don't think Amazon is making a 500% profit on that. Policy advocacy -- independent of the political parties -- oh, that a huge subject. Advertising and promotion; meet New York City, meet Madison Avenue and spin-offs.

EyesOnYou  08/06/2012 02:43 AM Report

Boy was this difficult to watch. Sorkin is a total idiot who happened to be at the right place at the right time. He doesn't have the earnest clue about Apple's business and is being used as sucker by the WS crooks looking to make a buck on the backs of retail investors by hyping garbage as buyout targets.

Charlie your show has been sinking fast.

Gelles  08/05/2012 11:10 PM Report

What do I want that my PC with Windows XP does not provide?

1. 24-7 telephone support that fixes my PC fast.

2. Voice to text that really works.

3. Amazon vanity publishing support at its cost X 5 pricing -- say comparable to GoDaddy hosting of a vanity ebook site.

4. Lots of other stuff as the need arises.

Of course that's not really what I want. I want a policy wiki that accepts all contributions as equal: but to do this, it restates all contributed changes to its organized policy paragraphs to avoid duplication of equivalent texts.

For example, they have a paragraph explaining what "output-based money" is -- in the context of "money designed to make likely absolute full employment in a free enterprise economic democracy.

In case paragraphs and organized doctrine tend to be self-contradictory, the policy wiki would resolve such illogical outcomes by offering separate doctrines that were appealing on their face and attracted large followings.

Gelles  08/05/2012 05:14 PM Report

Segment 3 to Ellen.

It is true that any of us, like Ricardo, Romney, or our President, can pretend to predict the uncertain future. So my formula demanding "purpose", feedback steering "systems" to reach original or modified purpose, and money divorced from debt, must await evidence of its practicality -- no less stringent than other formulas.

I do not like uninvited advertising, taxes or un-affordability. I also oppose patents, copyrights, and other restraints on production. So I must welcome replacements of these institutions with outside the box innovative rules of thumb. One of these may be "tenured wealth"-- a way to diminish opposition to change that is necessary to avoid intransigence.

..... Among such replacements for incentives

Gelles  08/05/2012 04:49 PM Report

Digitalization of communication signals, including money balances and exchanges, is capable of enormous detail and exotic speeds. This will allow America and its continental size partners to manage investments to avoid inflation and hurt-full deflation as they END scarcity, financial-error, unnecessary environmental risk, and outright SYSTEMIC acceptance of fraud and injustice.

Gelles  08/05/2012 04:34 PM Report

Dear Ellen,

You ask,

..... "But I don't understand the monetary basis of your view of a new world order, based on digital money."

..... The new world order will emerge as debt is placed in perspective as a possible future payback -- no more certain than equity ownership of real assets.

[I continue in short segments -- because my ATT system is fragile.]

Ellen_Dibble  08/05/2012 11:51 AM Report

What is "output-based money"? You mean it only exists if someone wants you to spend it on some real need?

I like what you said, "The era of post-totalitarian, post debt-based money DRIFT, must end -- as history enters a new beginning." It seems to me if the current purveyors of totalitarian ideology depend on God to do the management, as al Quaida does, even though that ideology is everywhere and therefore impossible to defeat, the totalitarianism of the 20th century, or the imperialism of previous centuries, is likely to disappear. Nations will come together out of necessity. But I don't understand the monetary basis of your view of a new world order, based on digital money. I mean, I hope you keep finding ways to keep people thinking about that, and coming up with ways to talk about it. As far as what I understand, it seems a global re-equilibration would remove some of the explosiveness in certain bank deals that were gambles as to the collapse or drift of some deal or other, deals of scope that sets the teeth on edge. So basically a global declaration of bankruptcy, and let "someone" figure out a fair new start point, imposing inflation or deflation here and there. If all nations and all peoples were more or less on a par, that would fly, but they're not. So inch-wise we have to pull some of the risk (and probably most of the profit) out of global finance. Somehow it shouldn't end up being that the financiers are de facto the deciders, the governors, pulling all the strings, because I think we see the kind of paternalism that transpires. You get benign warehousing, with people believing that they've got it good when in fact they have been deprived of any fair chance. Perhaps the internet will guarantee that such cannot happen.

Ricardo_Amaral  08/05/2012 11:39 AM Report

Business Insider – August 3, 2012

Analyst Presents A Terrifying Vision: THE DECLINE OF THE WEST

http://www.businessinsider.com/jon-moynihan-decline-of-the-west-2012-8

Analysts across the world view the rise of China and the work ethic of developing nations as serious threats to the United States'  and Europe's economic dominance.

Banking crises, failing educational standards, and rising unemployment are among the ills that Western economies face today, and many believe that we have not made significant progress to address these concerns.

Jon Moynihan, Executive Chairman of PA Consulting Group, dissects these problems, taking a deep dive into the stagnating western world in his presentation "The Continued Economic Decline of the West," which he delivered at the London School of Economics earlier this year.

See the slideshow here:

http://www.businessinsider.com/jon-moynihan-decline-of-the-west-2012-8#-1

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Gelles  08/05/2012 08:54 AM Report

Thanks Ricardo_Amaral, for your generous mis-information --corrected in CAPS below:

..... For all practical purposes the US economy is finished regarding the 21st century, its imploding economy is becoming marginal and not that important in the new world of the 21st century.

..... THE SWITCH FROM DEBT TO OUTPUT-BASED MONEY BY THE AMERICAN LED GLOBAL ECONOMY IS COMING. THE RACE IS TO THE TOP. AND THERE IS AMPLE ROOM AT THE TOP FOR THE HUMAN RACE.

The US economy is a race to the bottom, and the US economy has not collapsed just like the Soviet Union, because the US dollar has a special status as the main world reserve currency – a status that has reached the end of the line, and is in the process of being replaced with a new international monetary system compatible with the world of the 21st century.

In a nutshell: The major companies are not bringing the money back to the United States, because in the next 20 years the real global economic action will in in countries such as the BRICS, and the US economy represents the world of yesterday, and not the world of tomorrow.

SORKIN IS IMPRESSED BY MUSK AND THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX. IT MAY BE MUSK OR ANY OF THOUSANDS OF OTHERS IN AMERICA (NO MATTER WHERE THEY WERE BORN) WHO WILL DEVELOP IN CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK, NEW ENGLAND, THE MID-WEST, SOUTH, NORTH-WEST, AND PODUNK, THE NEW SYSTEMS TO SOLVE SCARCITY WITH ABUNDANCE, INJUSTICE WITH FAIRNESS, AND IGNORANCE WITH ARTIFICIALLY ASSISTED HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

..... EUROPE WILL FOLLOW -- AS WILL JAPAN, RUSSIA, INDIA, CHINA, BRAZIL, AND ALL OTHERS.

THE WORLD OF TOMORROW WILL SPEAK ENGLISH AND DO RIGHT BY INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE AND THE PLANET.

Ricardo_Amaral  08/05/2012 08:45 AM Report

Gelles, I just found this video about things to come in the old USA.

Economic Collapse In The Weeks Ahead – August 4, 2012

http://youtu.be/lTuE9oUBl24

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Gelles  08/05/2012 08:21 AM Report

My own ID is "output-based money". It recognizes that "money" is not alone as "a force to be reckoned with":

..... The continuously current "output that satisfies need", especially the needs that may be classified as "weapons" of war and commerce, (or what are "things that money can buy"), are a UNITY -- two sides of the same coin.

[continued at paragraph 2, below.]

Gelles  08/05/2012 08:16 AM Report

My own ID is "output-based money". It recognizes that "money" is not alone as a force to be reckoned with". The continuously current "output that satisfies need", especially the needs that may be classified as "weapons" of war and commerce, (or what are "things that money can buy"), are UNITY -- two sides of the coin.

Firms may have some bucks, nations too may have some. But money, as such, means little if you do cannot be the supplier of the things money must buy.

These things are measured at current levels in fact numbered in the TRILLIONS. And the measure of potential produceable output is several times as much.

So the big firms and banks that have money, and the continental nations (that own real estate and the allegiance of hundreds and thousands of millions of human beings,) should not be viewed as ready to BUY or CONQUER "the end of history".

We are only at the start or the current era. Digital money and weapons of cyber-war are in their infancy.

There are paths ahead to peace and plenty -- and paths, as well, to war and catastrophe.

America is still Number One. But a partisanship must succeed her. And some "PURPOSE" preceding that partnership, including positive human rights, is called for.

The era of post-totalitarian, post debt-based money DRIFT, must end -- as history enters a new beginning.

Ricardo_Amaral  08/04/2012 11:22 PM Report

Max Keiser: Occupy Bilderberg & Mainstream media with Alex Jones – August 4, 2012

http://youtu.be/WcMq4cPd6nw

In this edition of the show Max interviews Alex Jones form infowars.com. He talks about the Occupy Bilderberg movement and its mainstream media attention; What the mission is? Where does it go from here? Alex Jones is an American talk radio host, actor and filmmaker. His syndicated news/talk show The Alex Jones Show, based in Austin, Texas, airs via the Genesis Communication Network.

*****

Keiser Report: Superstition Trading – August 4, 2012

http://youtu.be/NHYVQlTQLRA

In this episode, Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss artificial superstition, increasing the inflation target to 100% and suicide watch for the too big to fail banks. They also discuss HSBC's misselling of interest rate swaps and drug cartel money laundering.

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Ricardo_Amaral  08/04/2012 08:44 PM Report

From the crew of "Squawk Box", Andrew Ross-Sorkin is a likeable fellow and his comments usually are OK compared with the many comments from Joe Kernen which drives me nuts on a regular basis.

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Ellen_Dibble  08/04/2012 05:03 PM Report

I fell asleep during this interview, which made me mad, but I was thinking there are plenty of smart people out there to help this interview hatch. There are so many directions. Banking and antitrust -- I'll need many perspectives, from titans of global enterprise, treasury chiefs, etc., from numerous countries, areas, and international groups, before I understand it, but conceivably by 2017 that can happen, if Charlie Rose and his staff can keep all the contacts, all the good will and value and magnetism that lets it happen.

But what I'm seeing here is comments about things like population shifts, which seem easier to comprehend. Global warming will likely spawn more insects, farther north, and more and newer diseases. Health care might mean taking a million people here, a million people there, and shifting them, pronto. Or then again, floods, droughts, and wildfires, plus hurricanes, cyclones, tornadoes, could displace people by the hundreds of thousands. Famine, disease, rising sea levels, loss of biodiversity, change that even careful global coordination really isn't equal to, not even when everyone is cooperating. And so far, we have more experience competing than cooperating.

Likely certain shocks to large swaths of humanity will challenge us: Do we fight over the remains of the planet? Making things worse but guaranteeing that the most relentless win/survive? Or the most vicious, full of vice? The most disciplined? The most enduring? It seems unlikely that those who expect indoor plumbing and pure water and constant electricity would be the winners. It seems likely that the next half century will happen "to" us, with a large dose of chaos, not planning. I suppose this depends on sequencing, the size of the steps/challenges that take place. But I'd think the planet needs educational institutions with departments of cross-cultural transplantation and relocation, and/or crisis management, where now that might be called educational departments of military defense and diplomacy. How 20th century. Perhaps defense should wait till we stabilize somewhat; then we can resume fighting to be on top. And diplomacy -- are we getting into Cold War type rigidities, as in Congress; trying to simplify the world into us and them? Human nature has been like that for millions of years, turf wars from day one, but all of a sudden we find we are one tribe, sharing one globe. Values we've used within a family unit, or a neighborhood/tribe, are beginning to require extension to those within the interdependent group, which would be all of us.

All that money -- this is the second time I've heard that Big Money has no idea what to do with itself, except wait for the elections, and see what the next administration comes up with. Even then, Big Money may be happy to let us rot while they stir up trouble in less well-regulated BRIC nations. Maybe they can create some bubbles over there. Yes, I fell asleep. This is way, way above my pay grade.

Ricardo_Amaral  08/04/2012 03:45 PM Report

Reply to BENEZRAA – You wrote: “(2) WHAT ARE THE DEEPER REASONS THAT OFF-SHORE MONEY REMAINS OFF-SHORE?”

*****

Ricardo: There's no reason to bring the money back to the United States; with a very mature economy, a fast growing ageing population, a banking system based on the “Ponzi scheme” model, an economic system that the best ideas that is capable to create are empty shells such as Zynga, Groupon, Facebook, and so on....

Today, the United States has a pathetic economic system which it tries very hard to sell around the world as if it was the best economic system ever made.

How pathetic?

The US economy has trillions of US dollars sitting on the sidelines waiting to be invested. The real unemployment rate in the US economy is around 18 percent or even higher, and more than 50 percent of these unemployed people has at least a college degree – the American capitalists don't have a clue how to invest this ton of money and use all this wasted human capital to create anything of value other than the make believe companies such as Zynga, and Facebook, or to create new layers of fraud on its “Ponzi schemes” in Wall Street.

For all practical purposes the US economy is finished regarding the 21st century, its imploding economy is becoming marginal and not that important in the new world of the 21st century. The US economy is a race to the bottom, and the US economy has not collapsed just like the Soviet Union, because the US dollar has a special status as the main world reserve currency – a status that has reached the end of the line, and is in the process of being replaced with a new international monetary system compatible with the world of the 21st century.

In a nutshell: The major companies are not bringing the money back to the United States, because in the next 20 years the real global economic action will in in countries such as the BRICS, and the US economy represents the world of yesterday, and not the world of tomorrow.

***

BRIC - the new emerging world superpower

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3467681&highlight=South+Hemisphere#post3467681

March 6, 2012

SouthAmerica: Reply to mokwit

Brazil is 100 percent energy self-sufficient, and if the entire Middle East goes up in flames - that would not affect the Brazilian economy as the Middle East event would affect the economy of other countries.

Brazil has all the resources that it needs for economic development, as a matter of fact Brazil is rich in just about everything that you can imagine, there are only 2 other countries in the world that has all the resources that they need to be 100 percent self-sufficient such as Brazil - the 2 countries are: Canada and Russia.

*****

Brazzil Magazine - Monday, 01 August 2011

“The Time Is Now for Brazil to Build a Strong Military! Just Hire Laid-off NASA Scientists”

Written by Ricardo C. Amaral

http://www.brazzil.com/component/content/article/235-august-2011/10505-the-time-is-now-for-brazil-to- build-a-strong-military-just-hire-laid-off-nasa-scientists.html

Quoting from the above article:

World Population

2,011 AD...........7,000 million or 7.0 billion people (As of October 2011)

2,023 AD...........8,000 million or 8.0 billion people (Estimate)

2,034 AD...........9,000 million or 9.0 billion people (Estimate)

China and Russia are changing their population policies which will result in faster population growth in the coming years – we probably will reach 8 and 9 billion people living on our planet much faster than they had estimated over the last few years.

The Northern Hemisphere is the part of the Earth that lies north of the equator, and the Southern Hemisphere is the part of the Earth that lies south of the equator. Out of the 7 billion people who live on our planet today only 10 percent of the total population (about 700 million people) live in the Southern Hemisphere, and 90 percent of the global population live in the Northern Hemisphere (about 6.3 billion people).

And as the Earth population grows very quickly from 7 billion to 9 billion people by 2034, most of this population growth is going to happen in the Northern Hemisphere.

In the first part of the 21st century we will have a fierce competition among the major nations of the world when they reach around the globe in their efforts to acquire the scarce natural resources which are necessary to feed the constant economic growth of their economies.

The “perfect storm” is ahead of us which includes a continued population explosion from 7 billion to 9 billion people, a fierce fight to secure scarce natural resources around the world, a re-structuring of the global economic and financial system to reflect the new economic realities of the 21st century, and as part of this adjustment, it will include the usual economic and currency wars that are already underway.

*****

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3488433&highlight=South+Hemisphere#post3488433

March 29, 2012

SouthAmerica: ...What counts is that the Brics will be responsible for 50 percent of global GDP growth in the next 8 years.

And today the BRICS have an estimated US$4 trillion in combined foreign currency reserves.

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richard-lipscombe  08/03/2012 11:12 PM Report

in this conversation i was struck most by your rather bold prediction Mr Rose - you think your show will still be on TV in 2017...WOW that is a big call....

you may be right but if you are then your show will have change its content dramatically...

as America continues to decline its national media will become more not less the mouthpiece of one ideology (Obamacare - from birth to grave) or the other (Tea Party minimalism)...there are signs of this happening to the Charlie Rose Show already...as others who comment here note, more and more frequently, there is no real voice for The Tea Party at the Charlie Rose Table...

if you continue to present the content you clearly favour in 2012 then Mr Rose you would do well to consider changing the name of this program to "Charlie Rose - a round table conversation with his friends"...but will the audience for this show be enough to continue to raise revenue for its presentation for another five years? I think not...

the digital era is about diversity not conformity...it is about difference not sameness... it is about social networks not homogeneous tribes....it is about change not sterile continuity...

Mr Rose, you made a bold prediction declaring that you will still be around be in 2017 to interview your friend Andrew...for me, that is very good news because it means that the Charlie Rose Program is about to innovate, to jump out of the box, to become much more inclusive of difference and alternative views to those of prevailing liberals like most of your guests - to do a Steve Jobs and give consumers what they do not know they really want...

I look forward to meeting more young people on the NEW Charlie Rose show, more people who want to make a difference to life in America (not just those who profess to be 'progressives')...more people who will not falter when you interrupt them (with your agenda questions) but who are able to stay on course with two competing ideas at one time and then go onto explain which is which and why they favour one over the other...

will it be the NEW Charlie Rose Show in 2017 or endless repeats of that old classic Charlie Rose in conversation with his friends?

cheers, and good luck to you Mr Rose, richard.

BENEZRAA  08/03/2012 07:31 PM Report

OOPS...

Please correct for proper spelling of "Glass-Steagall" in lines 3 and 5 of (1) below (TY).

BENEZRAA  08/03/2012 07:29 PM Report

INTERESTING CONVERSATION

(1) SHOULD THERE BE A "GLASS-STEAGALL" ACT FOR THE TELECOM-INTERNET INDUSTRIES?

Mr. Ross-Sorkin has put forth a compelling speculation: What if Google or Apple were to acquire Sprint? Which raises the question, analogous to the idea of "banks that are too big to fail" and such as Sandy Weil reconsidering that Glass-Steigel should perhaps be re-enacted, is there such enough similarity in the lofty realms of internet and telecom that consideration is due, whether or not there should be something similar to Glass-Steigel to establish some separations between the various related media and media technology industries? Should the cables, wires, fiber-optics, satellite, radio, and cellular "pipes" be owned by the same companies that provide content, software, and hardware? To what extent, if any, should there be legally required separations of these entities in order to encourage competition?

(2) WHAT ARE THE DEEPER REASONS THAT OFF-SHORE MONEY REMAINS OFF-SHORE?

The additional compelling fact of the conversation goes to the amount of cash companies may have have sitting overseas "waiting to come home to the USA on a tax holiday". The questions raised by this fact are far-reaching. There is the obvious question, will there or will there not be a tax holiday that will bring money home to the USA? Is there a game of chicken going on in that, if the overseas money is at play overseas, at what point will limitations force the money back to the USA? Or is the hue and cry for a "tax holiday" just a smokescreen for firms to keep their overseas money on foreign shores (for which there may or may not be good reason)?

RECOMMENDATION

I suggest that both of these questions be raised at the table of the Charlie Rose Show in the very near future.

BENEZRAA  08/03/2012 06:49 PM Report

INTERESTING CONVERSATION

It is a compelling idea to think of

tabs  08/03/2012 05:25 PM Report

Hello Andrew, and for that matter the rest of his "Squawking" CNBC crew. Does one have to listen to more of "lil" Andrew who is part of the Andrew, Joe, Steve and sometimes Becky show on CNBC....Now we are listening to two "blind mice"..Andrew and Charley.."OH, Face Book is trading at half?" Yep, Mr Rose it is.

One word for all those "Crazy Ideas," ANTITRUST. Andrew is great at collecting all these bits and pieces of information out of his being "curious." However one doesn't hear anything but a panoply of facts and ideas without synthesis or conclusion. For example when Mr Rose asked about the "European debt crisis", all that Andrew could come up with was a rout recitation of common knowledge that was devoid of any insight.

Besides that Andrew is a card carrying anti capitalist Liberal. However one has noticed a toning down of his Liberal rhetoric as he is being brainwashed by all those bourgeois "Capitalist Pigs" that show up as guests on CNBC. Andrews demeanor as of late indicates that he is being corrupted by the bourgeois lifestyle and is in the process of trading in his Birkens for a pair of Gucci loafers. However one suspects that among friends at the NYT, Andrew reverts to being Komrade Andrew proclaiming his distaste for everything bourgeois that his fellow talking heads at CNBC so heartily embrace. Oh.. what to do with that dichotomy Andrew?

hmm  08/03/2012 03:14 PM Report

This was a very interesting tid-bit of everything at once I think it was very important segmant and theres was some huge Ideas that were outta the box thinking, if companies only knew how to utilize the future. thanks. Great interview.

REMant  08/03/2012 01:42 PM Report

That cos have so much cash on their balance sheets suggests they acquired it at the expense of consumers, who should be identical with workers. There really can be only one way in which such an imbalance could happen, that the stuff was printed by the Fed, and the goods made overseas, where the proceeds remain. With the resulting inflated wages and prices, it is impossible to manufacture here. So they sit on it. It would be nice to think this is why Bernanke has decided to bring this business to a halt, and the Chinese should actually be grateful.

That Apple acquired rather than developed stuff should not come as a surprise; just look at Microsoft, or Google. But like Facebook they all have more money than they can use as a result of the general enthusiasm of the past couple decades. It can be compared with the worldwide railroad bubble in the mid-19th c.

I don't know about the viability of Groupon, but I was thinking recently when another of the supermarket chains introduced a second generation club card, that it reflects an important business trend. A lot of ppl resent the intrusiveness of things like club cards, fearing personal info will be sold and spam received, but by locking down demand the stores can negotiate lower prices not only for them, but all other shoppers, because it enables mfrs to plan, too. It is in effect a kind of social democracy, if quite opposite from the usual.

And I don't know whether there's enough spectrum available to meet the bandwidth needed for wireless TV, etc. But when we look at this depression some years hence, I think we'll find that a lot of technological progress was made, as it was in the '30s.

IMHO tho Sorkin has Draghi and the European situation all wrong, because, despite all his research into the events of the last few years, he still harbors the idea that doing what bankers have always done, is somehow not what bankers will always do.