Charlie Rose

EPatrickMosman  06/02/2012 10:28 AM Report

Who is to blame for the education crisis? To start the court decision that gave students rights that ended discipline in the schools and in the classroom and the end of dress codes both for students and teachers Next universities and colleges that churmed out teachers with degrees who had little or no knowledge of basic subjects they would teach. Several examples;

-A young Miami U lecturer gave the incoming freshman class a general information quiz and was so disturbed by the lack of general knowledge that he shared the results with a reporter who wrote an article for a Miami newspaper. A few examples, a majority could not identify the President, did not know the number of States, did not know if Florida was on the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean and the list went on and on. He was not tenured and was fired for embarrassing the University.

-1982 was the first year that Florida required that college graduates with teaching degrees take an all purpose exam covering basic subjects English Math, History etc and more than 50 percent failed. This caused a mighty uproar in the teaching world with charges of racism and worse after the results were made public. The head of a private school in Miami gave the same test to his 8th grade class and every student scored 100%.

Finally the education gurus who deemed that learning should be fun not hard and there went memorization, followed by those who deemed that 'self-esteem' is more important than correct answers and those who now deem testing as the problem. The end result has been a very large body of poorly educated or uneducated parents who are unable to help their children or are not involved in doing so.

A recent program on new math showed a classroom of students trying to solve 28 divided by seven. Teams were set up a different tables, pencils, papers, scissors, glue were provided and a inordinate amount of time was spent talking, giggling, drawing, cutting, pasting and questioning, more like romper room than a classroom. Of course my first eight years in the 1940s were spent in a school with only four classrooms, four nuns teaching eight grades with weekly quizzes and frequent spelling, geography, history and math bees. Written tests in all subjects were monthly and the Iowa tests were taken at the end of the year.We learned and were not harmed by testing and memorization.

teachermant  05/28/2012 01:16 PM Report

http://therealworld-teachermant.blogspot.com/

http://www.todneyharris.com

Battlegrounds: America's War in Education and Finance A View from the Front Lines

teachermant  05/28/2012 01:13 PM Report

For those of you who have been following my progression with my blog, my book entitled Battlegrounds: America’s War in Education and Finance outlines key issues as to what is “broken” in the educational system and what “remedies” can be applied to not necessarily fix or solve every issue but make some meaningful changes that could have considerable effect in the future. After lengthy and considerable conversations with colleagues, I feel the need to make a statement that I have not made in the book. At this juncture, I feel that the overall denigration of American culture has contributed significantly to the denigration of our educational system.

After careful consideration, it is my humble opinion that the one factor that politicians and pundits have not spoken about is the lack of respect that currently exists for the institution as a whole. Asian and Indian cultures do not suffer from this issue at all. One thing is for certain; a lack of respect for elders, and teachers in general is not tolerated whatsoever. Culturally, all sectors of society support education and schools in general.

America and its leaders need to understand this philosophy. I have an important question: How are the educators in society expected to compensate for the weaknesses ingrained our culture? I have already explained in my book that everything that happens in America finds its way into a classroom. I just don’t understand how educators are expected to solve the inequities of poverty and teach students concurrently? It is public information throughout the halls of our government is that parents cannot be legislated. There will never be a law that makes parents accountable for raising their children. In addition, there is no way that American culture can be legislated as well.

As a proud teacher, I will defend my progeny to my last breath. I am aware of the educational gaps that exist between poor and rich students. Once again, educators are not responsible for the condition of poverty. Yet we are expected to solve the issues. In my book I have made it perfectly clear that the institution of education cannot be reformed without reforming the institution of Capitalism first!

oneazn  05/27/2012 11:17 AM Report

Ms Ravitch said she's a historian. It's no wonder that she talks and thinks like someone who has never set foot in a classroom or run a school for a day.

tabs  05/26/2012 07:12 PM Report

The United States has INDUSTRIALIZED/Bureaucratized the education system. We take these little lumps of clay called children and then run them through assembly line schools to turn them into exactly alike little clay pots. Then we wonder why our education system is failing, when we have failed to understand the concept of individuality. No two clay pots will ever be the same.

You know not what you do!

NeilMacCallister  05/25/2012 07:39 PM Report

Notwithastanding the idiot Democrats, .. what the hell does Ms. Ravitch inform us of regarding our totally FAILING educational system??? ..That she wants more pay???

finalfantasytown  05/25/2012 07:18 AM Report

Pegasus currently is flying, cantering, and jumping among clouds, collecting data for evolution. Helen of Russia is still young. Pegasus will be transformed into a wooden horse recognized by Helen in Troy for ending the Trojan War.

finalfantasytown  05/25/2012 05:32 AM Report

After reading Krugman's article 'The Texas Unmiracle' in NY times on Aug. 14th, 2011, and knowing his understanding of miracle and myth/fantasy, I authentically give up my struggle for Nobel peace prize. It is wrong direction.

SharkswithfrikingLazers  05/25/2012 03:11 AM Report

FINLAND! TEACHERS!

ZAKARIA (voice-over): On the surface, Finland is the education world's ultimate slacker. Children don't start school here until they're 7 years old. They have far less homework than many countries. And they log fewer hours in the classroom than most developed countries, even the United States.

But don't be fooled. Finish students score first in the world in science and second in the world in math.

ZAKARIA: In Finland's schools, teachers spend less time drilling the facts and more time developing students' creativity. Most importantly, says Sahlberg, hardly any time is spent preparing students for standardized tests.

SAHLBERG: We have deliberately removed all those things. We never had a standardized testing system. And I hope that we never will.

ZAKARIA: But how can Finland afford to be so flexible in its approach and still get great results? The answer is simple. They have great teachers.

Teaching is a highly respected profession here, on par with doctors and lawyers. That's because they're all required to have master's degrees. The competition for those degrees is fierce. Only one in 10 applicants is accepted to primary schoolteacher training programs.

CHRISTY LANKA, PROFESSOR OF EDUCATIONAL PSYCHOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF HELSINKI: The elementary teacher program is hardest to get in than the university. It's harder to get in than medical school or law school.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1111/12/fzgps.01.html

Thar she blows!

SharkswithfrikingLazers  05/25/2012 03:04 AM Report

Charlie, I wish you would have asked her about Udacity.

When you had Sebastian Thrun on he really stressed the interaction of Udacity to the point where students were avoiding class to be taught on-line.

An enrollment of 160,000 students in the predecessor course at Stanford, and 90,000 students had enrolled in the initial two classes as of March 2012.[4][5]

Video lectures with closed captioning in conjunction with integrated quizzes and follow-up homework promote a "learn by doing" model.[15] Each lecture includes built in quizzes to help students understand concepts and reinforce ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udacity

So will technology save us in education?

SharkswithfrikingLazers  05/25/2012 02:52 AM Report

I once was asked to speak to elementary students in a very Republican area.

I rounded up some pocket copies of our Constitution from our local Congressman.

During our discussion I asked the students where they interacted with government almost everyday.

When I told them their school was government many were in disbelief. They liked their school but at home they were taught government was not good. So how could this be?

During this interview we heard that almost 90 percent of American students attend public elementary and secondary schools.

So public education is government and we have to make government good. No more of this: "government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."

SharkswithfrikingLazers  05/25/2012 02:31 AM Report

Yes, "The Texas Miracle" in education turned out to be not as true as one would like and here is the CBS story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-591676.html

Yes, "The Texas Miracle" in job creation wasn't all it was cracked up to be either: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/15/opinion/the-texas-unmiracle.html

So now when you hear "Texas Miracle" think of what comes out of the back end of a steer.

Ms. Ravitch tells us it was "campaign talk" which turns out to be the same thing.

finalfantasytown  05/24/2012 09:37 PM Report

Anthropologist is the best one to provide examples for good education because they learn from history, from Gods. When reading mythology, going to the sites where events happened, finding out each detail is true with imagination(because some pieces are lost and can be restored and represented through participation), what is the feeling? It is fantastic, it is fairy tale, also it is reality. That is education in highly advanced civilization, for each of us, for our children, for thousands of years. Connecting with nature, all creatures will participate in our history, our everyday life. Throughout Trojan War, we march to this civilization. Human race definition has to be redefined because Gods are with us. For Athena, for Zeus, for Poseidon, for Demeter, for final fantasy. Solute! Solute! Solute!

SharkswithfrikingLazers  05/24/2012 03:53 PM Report

Charlie, you are the only real educator.

Anyone who says otherwise should be tested.

BoseEinstein  05/24/2012 02:54 PM Report

Come on Charlie, when you begin with a lie (is the NYC school district the only school district that can’t fire it’s teachers?) How can you believe anything else she says? What happened to the DC mayor?

Abraham_Lincoln  05/24/2012 12:59 PM Report

It's always unfortunate that U.S. education reformers *never* mention the role of parents as key in education. Instead, income is used as proxy for linkage with academic achievement.

Well, parents' values towards education is fundamentally important to the child's values towards education. White and Asian-American parents who value education have kids who do well in school. Black and Latino parents who don't value education have kids who don't do well in school. Black and Latino parents who value education have kids who do well in school -- but too few.

NO amount of money, tests or wishful thinking can change values.

PS, Ravitch can barely string together a compelling argument without meandering all over the place. Perhaps she's in need of No Adult Left Behind.

REMant  05/24/2012 11:40 AM Report

In other words, when she was a Republican Charlie wouldn't have her. Now that she's shown remorse for her sins, she's persona grata. Still, she does think incompetent teachers should be found out and fired. I could find little complaint with her listed desiderata. However, she did not, I think, do a very good job of explaining herself. Most of that centers on testing, and I'm sure hers is not the president's (at least stated) view.

Teachers HAVE to teach to a test, if tests are to be given. Otherwise we are talking progressive education. If that seems inappropriate, the thing to do is change the test. But if you intend to educate, you had better have some idea what it is you expect to be learned. This is something she should have sorted out when she was at Columbia. Why would anyone want to teach one thing, and test on another? That only encourages teachers to grade the tests "creatively." Or claim they aren't really tests, only motivational tools. Or worse, use them for selection. Frankly, tho, I think teachers use this ploy mainly to cover up their lack of knowledge. And I am not sure we can trust guilds anymore than unions to police themselves.

BUT, it would be better if no one tested at all in schools: only afterwards, and someone else, for whom the tests are a measure of publicly expected proficiency. That's because in this country grades are instead used as a means of social control. We didn't grade at all 200 yrs ago. Class rankings were determined by social standing. When the Revolution undermined that idea, and government-supported schools came in, they did so precisely to impose some kind of order on the democracy which had ensued. They hired women not only because they were cheap, but also due to a sentimentalism which thought maternal love was better than physical punishment. Our school systems, I'm afraid, reflect our society. Looking over my high school yearbook I'm struck by the emphasis on status it reflects, and the obvious cliques revealed. That doesn't seem to have gotten any better, tho 50 yrs have now passed, and no doubt that's the reason why so few have any desire to go to reunions. Probably ends up costing colleges and private schools a lot of donations.

Indeed, nobody else grades teachers the way we do, because they don't have to. The teachers are honorable enough to grade themselves. Nobody grades students the way we do either, because we similarly do not expect virtue from them. Likewise, the effect of teacher unions and the AAUP has been to undercut self-reliance, self-control and self-respect. I might add that nearly no one else gives kids the summer off the way we do. Nor, I suspect, has the educational bureaucracy.

So IMHO we do have bad teachers, but we have bad teachers because we have bad education, and we have both because this is a society in which knowledge and virtue have gotten lost. For that I'd blame both Republicans and Democrats, but not those of a libertarian stripe, like Eisenhower. (BTW, I've never thought Hoover much of a bastion of libertarianism and I'm glad she mentioned Democrats liked the Bush program more than Republicans.)

The data, incidentally, has always shown charter schools on he whole do no better than public schools, unless they are selective, perhaps more proof that the problem is bigger than govt vs business.