Charlie Rose

machngunjoe  09/02/2011 01:24 PM Report

I agree, Antisemitism is totally on the rise

BENEZRAA  07/12/2011 01:52 PM Report

RE: "... THE HOPELESSNESS OF THE ME....."

Objectively speaking, apprehensions and cautions are one thing, pessimism is another. Objective reality suggests that there is far more reason to be optimistic than pessimistic with respect to the present and the future of the ME.

The existence of the State of Israel is a case in point. After more than two-thousand years of exile and persecution, a thriving, multi-cultural, multi-ethnic nation -- well exercised in freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom for women, and even freedom for internal enemies -- is by it's existence a tangible reason for and source of optimism.

That Israel is a Jewish majority State does not negate it's exceptional example of support of and respect for minority rights. I need not repeat, what I myself have written on this subject in this Comment venue on many other occasions -- or do I? Let me know, if such factual reminder is needed.

There is much to be apprehensive about now and going forward. But, I would not project that apprehension onto the ME, nor would I propose relocating the thriving, democratic nation of Israel to AZ (smack dab twixt the Mexico-US Border War) nor to any other place in the world.

As the saying goes, "If it works, don't fix it." Despite the negative sensationalism about the ME, both Israel and Gaza are thriving. The Arabs in Israel, be they citizens or not, are experiencing unprecedented economic growth, as are the Arabs of Gaza, where there is a construction boom, a glut of food and other necessities, and a bonanza in the private purchase of vehicles such as BMV's being smuggled through huge and ubiquitous illegal tunnels between Egypt and Gaza.

The future is never to be taken for granted; waking up in the morning is a daily gift of life, wherever one may live and whatever may be the circumstances of one's life.

Our American attentions are divided between the requirements and distractions of foreign involvements and domestic economic issues, both of which tend to overshadow moral issues and power struggles. There is as much reason or more to be apprehensive about the USA than the ME.

One stunning and salient example is the recent QUID PRO CUOMO -- Homosexual Marriage in NYS in exchange for industrial Hydrofracking. Moral pollution (approved less than two weeks ago) and Environmentall pollution (just a few months down the road) have the weight of the Governor and the Legislature and thus Legal Sanction. This is another step by which the haters of 'Jew York' will profit and expand their ranks by the Hydrofracking and by the Marital Registry (now to include homosexual marriages). Right Wing power may succeed and exceed throughout the nation to the point of all out race, ethnic, and sexual warfare.

There is no national service, thus there is a divide between 'those. who serve' [patriots] and 'those, who do not serve' [civilians], a divide never intended nor anticipated by our Founding Fathers, who by explicit wisdom authored the 'Bill of Rights', codifying the right and responsibility of Citizens to assemble and to bear arms to protect themselves, their families, and the nation from Tyranny.

Remember, the numbers of our private sector mercenary militaries equal or exceed the numbers of our public mercenary military.

Tyranny is knocking on the door to the American future.

robdverity  07/08/2011 09:42 PM Report

Maybe even AZ would allow a parcel for a 51st state?

Admittedly too fatuous for even this forum, but it expresses the hopelessness of the ME IMHO. It wont end good for anyone.

robdverity  07/08/2011 09:36 PM Report

Ben - yours is a plaintive plea. I have no credibility to respond - as a skeptic or cynic (you pick). I have too little faith in humanity (largely spawned by religions).

Here's an (impossible) solution (but the only workable one). A final diaspora to S. AZ. Same lat. (or is it long.?) as Israel. Can build their walls even on the S. border. And they would be welcome.

Anything less will be catastrophic (a la Armageddon type insanity).

So your second and third para's are too prescient.

BENEZRAA  07/08/2011 07:41 PM Report

MORE SERIOUSLY...

As there are a number of commentators in this venue, who express deep anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sentiments, I raise a question to this cadre: What vision(s) or expectation(s), if any, do you have for the Arabs and in particular for the Arabs of Palestine, if a State of Palestine should come into existence? Corollary questions to this are: Would Israel still exist as a State in it's present location, or must Israel cease to exist? Will the Arabs make genuine, full peace with Israel? Will a State of Palestine devote itself to peace or will it devote itself to war and the annihilation of Israel?

If your mind is totally invested in the bigoted belief that in this world -- in which there are more than 300 million Arabs, 1.3 billion Muslims, an equal 1.3 billion Christians, similar billions of Africans, Chinese, Indians, and Southeast Asiatics -- a handful of Jews ruin everything for everyone and that therefore the Arabs of Palestine have not only no possibility of peace with Israel, but, they also have an obligation to suffer and to fight against Israel on the behalf of the rest of the world; then I have made that bigoted argument for you right here right now (just in case you haven't heard it before).

If you believe that Jews and Arabs are both the Devil's spawn and should fight each other to death, and that therefore no real peace between Jews and Arabs should be encouraged nor allowed to occur except to hold out false hope for each the Jews and the Arabs, then I have just made that bigoted argument for you as well.

There are those, who have said that the "peace process" has been both littered with and exhausted of workable ideas. I say that any real, workable ideas have been deliberately ignored. Peace just doesn't make 'good copy'. (e.g. Where is the scandal? Where is the brutality? Where is the vulgarity? Where is the crime? etc.). Nor does peace make a good home for demagoguery. While you can't keep all the people scared all of the time, you can keep all of the people scared some of the time, and some of the people scared all of the time. Scare the people and you can beat them up and pick their pockets and they'll worship you for it -- as long as they are scared....

If you have any real, sincere, visionary ideas towards genuine peace between Jews and Arabs and between Arabs and Jews, then please, take a moment or two and contribute you ideas right here right now. And by the way peace between Jew and Jew and between Arab and Arab isn't such a bad idea, either. Perhaps if each were happier with their own, they'd be happier with each other. Then it's up to the world to provide the ninty-nine percent perspiration to your one-percent inspiration that just might make the difference and change the world. I'm waiting.... More importantly the ME is waiting and suffering!

BENEZRAA  07/08/2011 06:10 PM Report

MR. ROBDVERITY - ISRAEL IS THE "PUPPY" AND YOU ARE THE ONE KICKING IT.

re: "If the Israelis stop kicking them [Palestinian Arabs], my sympathies will also cease." (Robdverity)

TRANSLATION - "If the PALESTINIAN ARABS stop kicking the JEWS, then I (Robdverity] will no longer be sympathetic to the HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, AND ALL OTHERS DEVOTED TO THE DESTRUCTION OF JEWS AND OF ISRAEL."

Alas, Robdverity, you are no Jerry Seinfeld!

JohnGelles  07/08/2011 03:05 PM Report

At one time the US and Canada were at war. Now they are the best of friends. In my youth, among my closest Jewish brethren were the Canadian Jews with who I went to summer camp. (Several of the best of us died in our war with Germany in the service of the RCAF.)

I mention Canadians because there is a chance that peace will come to the Middle East and Jews and Arabs will no longer be at war.

At present there are joint Arab-Israeli peace activists who see each other's situation -- and want peace to replace the bitterness of the past. These bona fide independent witnesses to the facts, unlike Rob de Verity (real name ??), do NOT cast Jews as villains presently or ever. The are sincere and hate no one on the ground that the one they hate was born to Jewish parents. They seek the truth and and work for peace and understanding.

I am not one of such activists (and perhaps BENEZRAA is also not one either). But in out postings here we speak the truth and work for peace and understanding. Deborah Lipstadt is a scholar we must respect, all of us, for devoting so much of her life to the cause of justice -- above and beyond the call of duty we all hear but so few answer.

robdverity  07/07/2011 08:12 PM Report

Ben - yeah, I'm a regular Jerry Seinfeld. My sympathy for the Pals is akin to that for a kicked puppy (despite their dislike of dogs). If the Israelis stop kicking them, my sympathies will also cease.

Not holding my breath.

BENEZRAA  07/07/2011 06:58 PM Report

MY DEAR FRIEND ROBDVERITY, YOU ARE SUCH A COMEDIAN!

You write anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli diatribe purely for the unadulterated pleasure of pushing Jewish buttons. You couldn't care less about the Palestinian Arabs! You take great pleasures in lying (e.g. "The lady had a bigoted approach"). All your "dismay with the ME" is baseless. Nothing you have written remotely offers consolation or support of Palestinian Arabs, who do seek real peace, as you have too much fun enjoying the spectacle of the violence and throwing gasoline on the flames under the guise of attempting to put out the fire. In this you are in the company of many.

robdverity  07/07/2011 05:42 PM Report

John n wdf.. The lady had a bigoted approach. She had her own "CR blog moments" as in declaring anti-Zionists were off base to declare Israel as fascists. All my dismay with the ME is based on my perception of the maltreatment, high-handed cruelty of the Pals by Israelis. Made all the more repugnant with after-the-fact justifications. Now Israelis are tunnelling beneath the Pals homes looking for evidence that they were their first. (Like the USA Indians?) So pushy! So arrogant! So anathema! So . . .

JohnGelles  07/07/2011 01:47 PM Report

The design of Internet audience comment boards, especially this one, is difficult at best -- and failure-prone in general. Self-selected often ignorant, usually stubborn people will attempt to attach themselves as fans of an important host only to make of the board less than joke -- a plain bore.

The usual crowd who end up coloring the total archive do not represent the audience or anything greater than a club of egotist fans who ought to be moderated and used to add quality to the overall project and not just the droppings of the horses parading before the crowd.

JohnGelles  07/07/2011 02:29 AM Report

The Eichmann trial and the Rose-Lipstadt conversation do not invite justification of the murder and torture of innocent children, women and men in any measure or oblique way, such as we are offered in these comments.

Shame on any comment and its author who made such an addition to the CR Show Internet archive.

The conversation was not about hatred of Jews in history. It was about what happened in WW II to innocents and what, if anything, it means to the civilization in which it took place that survives today and will survive tomorrow.

Many minorities are hated and some have experienced genocide. Few experience an Eichmann-like trial or a denial movement that wants to prove it never happened or if it did it was somehow deserved.

The genocide in Cambodia, conducted to rid that nation of innocent children and people who seemed to be in the way of communism as a new belief system, is perhaps a genocide to teach future generations not to do it again for any reason at all.

Genocide against Jews would seem to be set in muddy water--some who know about it are drawn to find merit or excuses mixed with all that pain. May some of them be judged not by me but by the Almighty to a serve a proper sentence where they will know what really happened.

wdfgbnm  07/07/2011 01:14 AM Report

some of the comments posted here reveal anti-semetism and feelings of hostility towards the jews. it is not approprite at all to use a discussion forum about deborah lipstadt's book as a stage to express such hatred.

blank  07/06/2011 10:21 PM Report

just take it out of your money not the charities and the tax deductions enough with the fake i'm not paying attention

usps (united states postal service) -> shouldn't take that long

i'll deal with this at some future time every second i go where i can't do what i need to do is a bad one

it doesn't get scarier than this (and i'm really not paying attention at all so you can do whatever you want)

and if you can't even understand this then i don't know it's not my fault

i'll deal with everything as an afterthought some point down the line

aright i'm out (just remember the money it's not a joke enough as using the suffering people as an excuse look at yourself and all the money you have)

all the money you made lying to me and using me and screwing my life up

AntonGrambihler  07/06/2011 08:42 PM Report

When will Charlie Rose have conservations with Palestine Gentile Refuges who want their land back that is being ILLEGALLY occupied by Israel?

robdverity  07/06/2011 06:55 PM Report

Well perhaps. Prime movement toward the melt down was made with the purchase of the repeal of Glass-Steagall by Citibank's Robert Rubin and Sandy Weill. Lloyd Blankfein CEO G-Sachs, yadda, yadda.

Seemed to fit your prev. post: ". . . that because they are special in the eyes of God other peoples are jealous and persecute them for it. Couple that with the fact that during the Middle Ages Christians were forbidden to lend money for interest, thus it was left for the European Jews to become the money lenders. Remember Shakespeare's Shylock?"

Being clever (especially with impunity) a way of getting even. Social conscience obscured for gain and disdain. Took a degree of Shylock-cleverness to scuttle the world's ec. without even a hint of imprisonment to any of the perps.

tabs  07/06/2011 06:21 PM Report

"If Jews were not involved (as CEOs etc) of the financial institutions, would the sub prime melt down still have happened?"..Robdeverity

This comment deserves an answer. The answer is YES the sub prime disaster would still have happened. It had nothing to do with any religious or ethnic persuasion. The sub prime disaster was a function of a generation of men only knowing the consequences of risk in the abstract form as they had never experienced the consequences (reality) of their risky behavior. Therefore they were likely to take those risks. The Depression generation and prior generations understood that their actions had real consequences. This is a stunning mindset that is still prevalent today in our political and financial leadership. All one has to do is listen to the financial and political leadership argue about rearranging the deck chairs while the deck of the Titanic becomes awash in deficit and debt. One has been of the opinion since 1980 that nothing is going to dissuade them from conducting business as usual until the ship sinks beneath them. Then they will get the magnitude of their folly.

tabs  07/06/2011 05:51 PM Report

The horror and comeuppance for Western Civilization in particular is how could so cultured and civilized a nation that brought Martin Luther, Bach, Beethoven, Goethe among others be so complicit in the barbarity of the genocide that the Holocaust was? The answer for that, is that in all men there is a darkness that belies the fact that we are not so distant from the trees after all. To acknowledge and accept that fact along with remembering our capacity to love is our saving grace. One might even say our transcendent grace.

blank  07/06/2011 05:26 PM Report

it doesn't matter i'm not reading it's just tick tock you're a duck quack quack it's not complicated it's not my job to convince you how serious this is

your mind is somewhere else

robdverity  07/06/2011 05:12 PM Report

tabs - re Shylock: If Jews were not involved (as CEOs etc) of the financial institutions, would the subprime melt down still happened? Too clever by . . .

tabs  07/06/2011 04:51 PM Report

The Jewish state of Israel in particular has used the post Holocaust mantra of "Never Again" as justification for its actions. Perhaps the reason why anti-semitism is prevalent is that Jews have a smug self assurance that they are God's chosen people and are thus special. By being special they set themselves apart from other peoples and don't fully assimilate their idenity into the fabric of the culture of the peoples they live among. The corollary being that because they are special in the eyes of God other peoples are jealous and persecute them for it. Couple that with the fact that during the Middle Ages Christians were forbidden to lend money for interest, thus it was left for the European Jews to become the money lenders. Remember Shakespeare's Shylock?

JohnGelles  07/06/2011 03:33 PM Report

correction:

are NOT the exclusive inheritance of Germans.

JohnGelles  07/06/2011 03:31 PM Report

The murder of millions of innocent women and children solely because they were born into Jewish families by the German nation and most of its people during WW II is discussed by Charlie Rose and Deborah Lipstadt as part of an on-going attempt by members of the human race to express sympathy for Jews who still feel the pain of both remembrance of the suffering and recall and experience of the hate that inflicted or tolerated it.

Sadly, when Americans examine our experience of slavery and conquest of the Indian nations, we know that evil, murder, theft of property, teeth, labor and life, and hate and all its consequences, are the exclusive inheritance of Germans.

Still, when REMant writes, after hearing this discussion,

..... "There seems to have been a belief among Zionists that might trumps right. They are not prone to talk about natural law, etc. Berlin was also this way, not to mention those who slaughtered Palestinians and British to establish a Jewish state, which still seems to be going on. ...

....."Ben Gurion was quite well aware that Palestinians fought them to retain their land, but his answer was to increase the size of his army. ..."

-- when Remant writes, he is not moved by one of history's darkest moments -- he is rather moved to find Zionism is outside the boundaries of nationalism BUT the record of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his followers and their role in the murder of millions of Jews under German leadership and afterwards, as OK.

The Jews who live in Israel include a near majority who were exiled from Islamic lands after Israel was reborn. Their land and property were stolen while REMant was blinded by his prejudice. There are many Christian Zionists; and some Christian anti-Semites remain -- to find common cause with Muslim anti-Jewish activists.

robdverity  07/06/2011 03:21 PM Report

She validates that Israel's built on Western Hemispheric guilt and is anxious to continue to capitalize on it with continual reminders of the Holocaust as the survivors die off. About two generations and it will be much harder.

She also decried anti-Zionists that declare Nazi tactics are employed by Israel. Well easier said than done. The Palestinian Kill ratio is skewed all over the place. Well in excess of 1:1. Throw in embargos, road blocks, noncontiguous farms, settlements, yadda, yadda.

A Stockholm syndrome? Das boot.

Jewish history is tortured starting with banishment from Egypt, then E. Europe and Russian Pogroms. Do they ever ask why?

tabs  07/06/2011 03:14 PM Report

While Hitler hated the Jews and wanted to get rid of their presence in Germany and Europe in general, the Holocaust was not a foregone conclusion. That is until the December 1940 speech before the Reichstag where Hitler blamed British and American Zionists for continuing the war against him in the West and as result of that he was going to implement the final solution. Hitler also made it very clear to his generals that his coming war in the East was going to be unlike any other war in its brutality. Hitler made quite sure that there was no paper trail leading back to him nor was it spoken of in any of the daily meetings and conferences he held. It is most likely that Hitler told Heinrich Himmler privately to start the mass murder of the undesirable peoples of Europe.

The mechanistic industrial like slaughter of the Jews and others was put into place by Reinhardt Heydrich at the Wannsee conference at the beginning of 1942. Heydrich was quite a paradox in that he was related to the famous composer, played the violin, was a good family man, flew fighter aircraft in combat over the Eastern Front, was shot down behind enemy lines and escaped back to German lines but in the end was also a monster in his dispassionate attitude for the murder of millions. What is striking is that the Germans who administered the Holocaust were so dispassionate about their work that they might as well have been moving boxes around Europe instead of murdering millions. What is startling is that as Germany's defeat closed in the Germans quickened the pace of the Holocaust to get the job done.

Finally the question arises of how did Hitler come by his hatred of the Jews among others. For that one must remember that anti-semitism was common place in Europe before WW1, the irony is that Germany was the one country that assimilated the Jews into the fabric of the nation. In Poland, the Baltic States and in Russia among others the Jews were hated and treated as second class citizens. Against this backdrop Hitlers father was an illegitimate child of a maid who worked in a Jewish household in Austria. The speculation was that Hitlers grandfather was a Jew. Since Hitlers father was an extremely authoritarian figure it is likely that Hitlers relatively passive Mother in a pique might have disparaged his father to Hitler as being a Jew. Couple that with Hitlers pre WW1 days in Vienna as a wana be artist and his likely reading of the Czarist secret police's forgery "The Protocols Of Zion" as a Zionist plan to take over Europe, the ultimate blaming of the Jews for the defeat of Germany in WW1 and the stage is set for the one time Bohemian near do well to unleash the Holocaust.

SharkswithfrikingLazers  07/06/2011 12:37 PM Report

It is really not about remembering, rather it is about learning not to do it.

Yes, the Survivors of the Holocaust embracing the Rwandans make a good story but a better story would be the Rwandans having learned from the Survivors and stopped the slaughter.

Some 800,000 Tutsi and opposition Hutu were exterminated in the swiftest killing spree of the twentieth century (Bosnia was about at that same time too).

The United States has never intervened to stop genocide. This book is an effort to understand why:

http://www.booknotes.org/Watch/170542-1/Samantha+Power.aspx

Perhaps Israel can step up and take the world lead against genocide with the same passion she discusses in "The Eichmann Trial".

REMant  07/06/2011 10:44 AM Report

There seems to have been a belief among Zionists that might trumps right. They are not prone to talk about natural law, etc. Berlin was also this way, not to mention those who slaughtered Palestinians and British to establish a Jewish state, which still seems to be going on. This separates them not only from Christians, and Germans generally, but also a good part of the Old Testament. Ben Gurion was quite well aware that Palestinians fought them to retain their land, but his answer was to increase the size of his army. I think she'll have do more than simply assert Jews have always been hated and scapegoated for no reason, or that they have suffered from a paucity of power.