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dondeckert 05/02/2012 02:56 PM Report
Thank you for your excellent and informative interviews. I miss very few of your shows on local PBS TV at 11 PM after which I retire for the night.
I listened to both of your interviews with Paul Krugman and Senator Tom Coburn. Both make convincing arguments. However, Krugman's solution is in my mind the much better route to economic recovery for the following reasons. Krugman's idea of governmental assistance to the states for hiring teachers is a much needed item and most important. It is more important now than ever. The stronger this country's educational system going forward is, will make our whole country stronger in every dynamic imagined. My reasoning can be followed via the following comments in "We are Nearing a Singularity" and the article mentioned in the "The Futurist."
Senator Coburn's ideas might be preferred if our present economics were more static and less global as in the 20th century. In our present 21st century our economics have become much more global and dynamic. To nurture an ever changing dynamic system requires appropriate and progressive solutions. Propensity is always a dynamic in a continuing and changing system. Chaos theory is also a very important dynamic in any changing system. The wrong solution applied to any chaotic system will drive the system in an undesired direction with the potentail of an exponential increasing rate.
"We are Nearing a Singularity".
After reading two articles (Scientific American May 2012 issue "What a Plant Smells" and The Futurist article "Unlimiting Energy's Growth" May - June 2012 issue) and Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near" it occured to me that the planet is nearing a Singularity. My definition of Singularity is when Info - information increases exponentially with time
and the graph reaches the point where it becomes vertical or maximum information is obtained on any given subject or object or a singularity on that subject or object. Those two articles are examples of how planitary knowledge and hopefully wisdom are increasing exponentially. The developement in chemistry of "Buckyballs" will represent a quantum jump in how virtually every product is made. The economics of commerce, the processes and production of how every thing is made will follow the same senario that we see in the electronics field, a shrinking of cost. This shrinking of cost, will have the possibility to utopianise planitary life for all. As the author of the Futurist article suggests, in less than 20 years or maybe 10 years.
"Unlimiting Energy's Growth"
As costsd eclinea nds ophistication
increasess,m artm aterialsc ouldh elp
unlockl imitst o growth.
By Tsvi Bisk
The embryonic revolution
in material science now
taking place-specifically
"smart materials" and
superlight materials offers
strong evidence that
there are no limits to
growth. So-called smart materials,
as defined on Wikipedia, "are materials
that have one or more properties
that can be significantly changed
in a controlled fashion by external
stimuli." They can produce energy
by exploiting differences in temperature
(thermoelectric materials) or by
being stressed (piezoelectric materials).
Other smart materials save energy
in the manufacturing process
by changing shape or repairing
themselves in response to external
stimuli.
These materials have all passed
the "proof of concept" phase (i.e., are
scientifically sound), and many are
in the prototype phase. Some are already
commercialized and penetrating
the market.
For example, the Israeli company
Innowattech has placed piezoelectric
materials under a one-kilometer
stretch of highway to "harvest" the
wasted stress energy of vehicles
passing over and converting it to
electricity. This is called "parasitic energy
harvesting." The company reckons
that Israel has stretches of road
where the traffic could efficiently
produce 250 megawatts. If this is verified,
consider the tremendous electricity
potential of the New Jersey
Turnpike or the thruways of Los Angeles
and elsewhere. Consider the
potential of railway and subway
tracks. We are talking about tens of
thousands of potential megawatts
produced without any fossil fuel.
Thermoelectric materials can
transform wasted heat into electricity.
Some estimate that the wasted
heat from industrial processes alone
could provi de up to 20/o of America's
electricity needs-this would
make cogeneration even more efficient.
Cogeneration is already making
headway around the industrialized
world and still has tremendous
unexploited potential; again, this
30 THE FUTURIST Maa-lune2 012 .
would yield a tremendous
savings in fossil fuels.
Smart glass is already
commercialized and can
save significant energy in
heating, air conditioning,
and lighting-up to 50%
savings in energy in retrofitted
buildings (such as
the former Sears Tower in
Chicago). New buildings
designed to take maximum
advantage of this and other
technologies could save
even more. Since buildings
consume about 40% of
America's electricity production,
this technology
alone could over time reduce
electricity consumption by
20%.
Even greater savings in
electricity could be realized
by replacing incandescent and fluorescents
with LEDs, which use onetenth
of the electricity of incandescent
and half of the electricity of
fluorescents. The United States could
flatline its electricity consumption gradually
replacing fossil-fuel electricity
production with alternatives.
Conservation of energy and parasitic
energy harvesting, as well as urban
agriculture, would greatly cut the
planet's energy consumption and air
and water pollution.
Waste-to-energy technologies
could also begin to replace fossil
fuels. Garbage, sewage, and all
forms of organic trash, agricultural,
and food-processing waste are essentially
hydrocarbon resources that
can be transformed into ethanol,
methanol, biobutanol, or biodiesel.
These can be used for transportation,
electricity generation, or feedstock
for plastics and other materials.
Wasfe-to-energy is essentially a recycling
of carbon dioxide already in
the environment and not the introduction
of new COr.
These technologies also prevent
methane from entering the environment.
Methane, a product of rotting
organic waste, contributes just 28/o
of the amount that CO, contributes
to global warming but is 25 times
more powerful as a greenhouse gas.
Numerous prototypes of a variety of
waste-to-energy technologies are already
in place. When their declining
www.wfs.org
BuckypapeTrw: o-dimensionnaelt worko f carbon
nanotubedse positeidn thins heetsc ouldm akeu p a
continuouesl ectricalclyo nductinnge lworkA. t the
macroscalteh,e m ateriawl ouldb e nearlytr ansparent,
yet1 00t imess trongetrh ans teelp eru nito f weight.
costs meet the rising costs of fossil
fuels, they will become commercialized
and, if history is any judge, replace
fossil fuels very quickly-just
as coal replaced wood in a matter of
decades and petroleum replaced
whale oil in a matter of vears.
SUPERLIGHT MATERIALS
But it is superlight materials that
have the greatest potential to transform
civilization and ultimately help
introduce a "no limits to growth"
era. I refer, in particular, to carbon
nanotubes-alternatively referred to
as buckyballs or buckypaper ( i n
honor of Buckminster Fuller). Carbon
nanotubes are between 0.01%
and 0.002% the width of a human
hair, more flexible than rubber, and
100 to 500 times stronger than steel
per unit of weight. Imagine the energy
savings if planes, cats, trucks,
trains, elevators-everything that
needs energy to move-were made
of this material and weighed 1/o of
what they weigh now. Present costs
and production methods make this
unpractical at present, but that infinite
resource-the human mindhas
confronted and solved this problem
before. Let us take the example
of aluminum.
One hundred fifty years ago, aluminum
was more expensive than
gold or platinum. When Napoleon
III held a banquet of state, he proNIST
Nanotechnologcyo uld make smarta nd superlighmt aterials
that will help reduce our energy use and lead to self,sutficiency.
vided his most-honored guests with
aluminum plates. Less-distinguished
guests had to make do with gold
plates. When the Washington Monument
was completed in 1884, it was
fitted with an aluminum can-the
most expensive metal in the r,rrorld at
the time-as a sign of respect to
George Washington. It weighed 2.85
kg. Aluminum at the time cost 91 per
gram (or $1,000 per kg). A typical
day laborer working on the monument
was paid $1 per day for 10-12
hours a day. In other words, today's
common soft-drink can, which
weighs 14 grams, could have bought
15 ten-hour days of labor in 1884.
Today's U.S. minimum wage is
$7.50 an hour. In other words, using
labor as the measure of value, a softdrink
can would cost 91,125 today
(or $80,000 a kilogram). Then, in 'J.886,
a process discovered independently
by two chemists-American
Charles Marten Hall and Frenchman
Paul H6roult-turned aluminum
into one of the cheapest commodities
on earth. Aluminum now costs
$3 per kilogram, or $3,000 per metric
ton. The soft-drink can that would
have cost fiL,1,25w ithout the process
now costs four-tenths of a cent, or
$0.004.
Today, industrial grade carbon
nanotubes cost about $50-$60 per kilogram.
This is already far cheaper
than aluminum in 1884 in real value,
if we use the cost of labor as the
measure of value. Yet, revolutionary
methods of production are now being
developed that will drive the
costs down even more radically. For
instance, researchers at Cambridge
University in England
are working
on a new electrochemical
production
method (in the prototype
stage) that
could produce 600
kilograms of carbon
nanotubes per day
at a projected cost of
around $10 per kilogram/
or $10,000 a
metric ton.
This cost-saving
process will do for
carbon nanotubes
what the H a l l -
H6roult process did
for aluminum. Nanotubes will become
the universal raw material of
choice, displacing steel, aluminum,
copper, and other metals and materials.
Steel currently costs about $750
per metric ton. Nanotubes o f
strength equivalent to a metric ton of
steel would cost $100 if this Cambridge
process (or others being pursued
in research labs around the
world) is successful. Imagine planes,
trucks, buses, cars, and elevators that
weigh 5%,2%, or even 1% of what
they weigh today. Imagine the savings
in conventional energy. Imagine
the types of alternative energy that
would be practical. Imagine the positive
impact on the environment of
replacing many industrial and mining
processes and thus lessening air
and groundwater pollution.
The most promising use of nanotubes
is to turn them into paper.
"Buckypaper" looks like ordinary
carbon paper. It appears flimsy but
will revolutionize the way we make
everything from airplanes to cars to
buildings to household appliances. It
is 100 times stronger than steel per
unit of weight, and it also conducts
electricity like copper and disperses
heat like steel or brass.
Ben Wang, director of Florida State
University's High-Performance Materials
Institute, claims, "If you take
just one gram of nanofubes, and you
unfold every tube into a graphite
sheet, vou can cover about twothirds
of a football field." Since other
research has indicated that carbon
nanotubes could be a suitable foundation
for producing photovoltaic
energy, consider the implications of
this statem€nt. Several grams, of this
material could be the'energy-producing
skin of new generations of
dirigibles-making these airships
energy autonomous. These energyneutral
airships could replace airplanes
as the primary means to
transport air freight.
BEYOND THE LIMITS
Is this a futurist fable, or is it entirely
within the scope of development
in the next 20 years (or even
10)? Modern history has shown that
anything human beings decide they
want done can be done in 20 years if
it does not violate the laws of nature.
The atom bomb was developed in
four years from the time the decision
was made to make it; putting a man
on the Moon took eight years from
the time the decision was made to
do it.
It is a reasonable conjecture that,
by 2020 or earlieq, an industrial process
for the inexpensive production
of carbon nanotubes will be developed,
and that this is the key to solving
our energy, raw materials, and
environmental problems.
The revolution in material science
will help enable us to become selfsufficient
in energy. It will enable us
to create superlight vehicles and
structures that will produce their
own energy and obviate the need to
pump oil or mine many resources.
Carbon nanotubes will replace steel,
copper, and aluminum in a myriad
of functions. Whatever residual need
we might have for such materials
will be satisfied by the recycling of
existing reserves already in the system.
Such developments will help overcome
the limits of growth and enable
human civilization to become a
self-contained system. A
About the Author
Tsvi Bisk is director of the
Center for Strategic Futurist
Thinking and author of lhe
Ootimistic Jew: A Positive
Vision for the Jewish Peoole
in the 21st Century (Maxanna
Press, 2007). He is
also the THE FUTURIST'sc ontributinge ditor
for StrategiTc hinkingE. -maibl isk@
futur ist-think ing.coi.l .
wwtw.wfs.org . THE FUTURIST Maq-lune2 012 31
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shackwell 04/25/2011 07:41 PM Report
most annoying guest on the charlie rose show ever
pernfancy 04/15/2011 06:48 PM Report
I never had a sleep over, never attended a birthday party, or played at another person's house. I filled time with books, trips to the library, and watvhing PBS shows in the evening. I help clean the house, learned to cook and preserve food, even to change tires and check oil and water in the family car. this was childhood to teen years. What I see is useless folks all around my town that makes me feel over educated in life skills and education. I am not under socialized.NOw at 49 years old I think that Amy Chua is a hold over from a better time and the style of child rearing was every where among the folk that are currently 85 years old and olderbecause the stories they tell are the same as hers, it is just hidden from the current generation.
worldwatcher 03/10/2011 08:19 PM Report
Correction: worldwatcher 03/08/2011 05:16 PM: "the U.S. can't even launch it's own manned spaceships, anymore, to reach the international space station"
Actually the last flight for one shuttle (Discovery) has ended. There are 2 more final shuttle flights for the 2 last shuttles -- one shuttle in April and the last U.S. shuttle flight will be in June. And then, for the indefinite future, the U.S.'s only manned way up into space, and to the international space station, will be on a *Russian* spacecraft (or maybe next on an Indian or Chinese one). Who'd have ever believed *that* day would come: after the glories of the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, and the moon landing programs..., now very soon no *American* way to put an American in space. And we wouldn't even be able to do it anymore without a whole lot of foreign scientists, engineers and computer experts.
worldwatcher 03/08/2011 05:16 PM Report
re SharkswithfrikingLazers 03/07/2011 07:32 PM.
With over 1.33 BILLION people of numerous ethnicities (settled, migrant and nomatic), languages, dialects, religions, regions (rural and urban), climatic zones (from nearly sub-Arctic to subtropical), educational, occupational and economic levels, and even different cuisines...:
What is "a *China* parent"?
No they don't *ALL* look and act *ALIKE*.
------------------------------------------------------------
{ Btw, before the 1960's, and even for a period of time after that, the U.S. wasn't such a free country itself for everyone [remember American 250 years of slavery and well over a century of legalized and otherwise violently imposed racial Segregationism/apartheid, and deeply entrenched sexism, for the *MAJORITY* of the history of this country, where the *MAJORITY* of the people couldn't even freely vote, if at all?] -- it certainly didn't encourage "the mixture of cultures/races", let alone a "maelstrom". Non-white, non-male scientists and professionals were typically *heavily* discriminated against -- and even *worse* in Britain. It's only the result of well-educated, but less expensive foreign technical people, and the erosion of the American educational system, especially in mathematics and science, that the U.S. has had to turn to foreign, nonwhite scientists, engineers, computer scientists, medical doctors/personnel, and other technical people to fill the gap. Now even the U.S. national space system has eroded to the point that the U.S. can't even launch it's own manned spaceships, anymore, to reach the international space station.) And some of the most innovative scientists, computer scientists, and even architects have been Chinese. }
It's tendency toward racism or racial/ethnic prejudice that some or certain people persist in wanting to make simplistic, sweeping statements about huge numbers of people who live across entire continents, countries, or even (in various countries on every continent) all over the world. Hence, here, talk about "*THE* China/Chinese parent". This doesn't so much represent "*freedom* of thought", but *NARROWNESS* of thought and unconscious, biased and, at 'best', some kind of simplistic, partial or even statistically isolated selection.
SharkswithfrikingLazers 03/07/2011 07:32 PM Report
Sir Paul Nurse said it best--it is about China but also covers her book:
"China is very large and it’s investing in science in the same way. But unless in my view, unless you have a free society that encourages free information transfer, free immigration, and the mixture of cultures, you will never get truly innovative science. So I think that what -- that what may hold China back is not having enough freedom to allow science to thrive. If you look back at sort of history, you will see the times when different countries and areas were actually most productive, it’s usually when there’s a maelstrom of cultures, and mixing things up and where knowledge is just freely available in exactly the way you’re saying. Now, America’s done that at different times in its history, and I think it has to do it again, and I
think." http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11521
So David Brooks and Sir Paul Nurse might argue that freedom expressed during lunch, play group and sleep overs are quite IMPORTANT too! Don't be a China parent unless you are trying to limit your child!!!
worldwatcher 03/05/2011 11:48 PM Report
Clarification from a previous post of mine (03/04/2011 04:10 PM): "Well, green tea, which is the tea most Asians drink does, of course, *not* have a lot a tanins in it."
Actually, it depends on which Asian country you're talking about. For example, in Japan, Asians drink mostly drink green tea. In China, they drink a lot of *both* green and black tea, although the respective prevalence may also depend on which province. In India, they drink a lot more black tea. In other parts of Asia, it can vary by country and ethnic group.
worldwatcher 03/04/2011 06:18 PM Report
So, more on Malcolm Gladwell -- *another* one of those "hardworking", "successful", "experts" at Charlie Rose's PBS table:
"Criticism of Gladwell tends to focus on the fact that he is a journalist and not an academic, and as a result his work does not meet the standard of academic writing. He has been accused, for example, of falling prey to a variety of logical fallacies and cognitive biases. Critics charge that his sampling methods have resulted in hasty generalizations and selection biases, as well as a tendency to imply causation between events where only correlation exists.[28][29][30] One review of Outliers accuses Gladwell of "racist pseudoscience" due to "using his individual case studies as a means to jump to sweeping generalizations on race and class status",[31] while another review in The New Republic called the final chapter of Outliers, "impervious to all forms of critical thinking".[32] Gladwell has also received much criticism for his use of anecdotal evidence and general lack of rigor in his approach.[33][34]
Maureen Tkacik and Steven Pinker[21][35] have challenged the integrity of Gladwell's approach. Even while praising Gladwell's attractive writing style and content, Pinker sums up his take on Gladwell as, "a minor genius who unwittingly demonstrates the hazards of statistical reasoning", while accusing Gladwell of "cherry-picked anecdotes, post-hoc sophistry and false dichotomies" in his book Outliers. Referencing a Gladwell reporting mistake, Pinker criticizes his lack of expertise:[21] "I will call this the Igon Value Problem: when a writer’s education on a topic consists in interviewing an expert, he is apt to offer generalizations that are banal, obtuse or flat wrong."
A writer in The Independent accused Gladwell of posing "obvious" insights.[36] The Register has accused Gladwell of making arguments by weak analogy and commented that Gladwell has an "aversion for fact", adding that, "Gladwell has made a career out of handing simple, vacuous truths to people and dressing them up with flowery language and an impressionistic take on the scientific method." An article by Gladwell inaccurately referring to Finnish software engineer Linus Torvalds as the "Norwegian hacker Linus Torvald [sic]" was referred to by the group as a typical example of alleged sloppy writing.[37] Gladwell's literary approach is spoofed on the Web site the Malcolm Gladwell Book Generator. [38]"
-- Malcolm Gladwell's biography at Wikipedia
worldwatcher 03/04/2011 05:40 PM Report
Charlie: "...They all said one thing to me, I worked harder."
Regarding Charlie's famouse/celebrity/prominent guests: in addition to working hard, probably they were also in the right *place*, and at the right *time*, or even had the right skin color, maybe were the right gender, perhaps socioeducationally had the right parents &/or had the chance to go to the right schools, had the right support, and got the right *breaks*.
For example, "Most affluent/rich kids -- regardless of color and culture -- or hard work or lack thereof (can you say "George Dubya"?) -- get a chance to go to a prominent university. And most even white rural Appalachian coal mining family kids -- who don't even have secondary schools that would even prepare them to go to Harvard or Yale -- *don't* -- even *if* they're smart, or have more social skills (and social awareness, something Amy Chua is certainly lacking in).
worldwatcher 03/04/2011 04:10 PM Report
I bet that SharkswithfrikingLazers isn't even Asian -- I bet he/she is *white* -- but he/she sure does love his/her *ORIENTALISMS*!: a form of *RACISM*!
MORE *ORIENTALISMS*: "The second half of this book is devoted to the role culture plays in success. Gladwell says rice farming is why Asian populations do better at math.
WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY *RIDICULOUS* NOTION.
IF YOU GO TO UC BERKELEY, or UCLA, or MIT(!!) or Caltech(!!), I BET THAT YOU WON'T FIND A *SINGLE* ASIAN OR, ESPECIALLY, ASIAN AMERICAN STUDENT IN THE MATH DEPARTMENT -- OR IN A SCIENCE DEPARTMENT, COMPUTER SCIENCE, ENGINEERING, MEDICINE, OR LAW, LET ALONE CLASSICAL MUSIC -- WHO'S PARENTS WERE *RICE FARMERS*!!
IN FACT, OF COURSE, MOST ASIANS IN KOREA, JAPAN, TAIWAN, CHINA OR OTHER ASIAN COUNTRIES -- LET ALONE IN THE WEST -- ARE *NOT* RICE FARMERS!! -- NO MORE THAN MOST AMERICANS, LET ALONE THOSE WHO ARE "GOOD IN MATH", ARE *WHEAT* FARMERS!
This reminds me of another guest on Charlie's show who once said that *rich/affluent* Asians -- in Asia -- were drinking more red wine from Napa Valley and such because "Asians drink tea and tea, like red wine, has a lot of tanins in it"!! Well, green tea, which is the tea most Asians drink does, of course, *not* have a lot a tanins in it. Black tea has some tanins in it, but not even that, hypothetically, would be the reason that *rich/affluent* Asians -- in Asia -- would be drinking more red wine from Napa/whatever valley in the US. You see, white people love cute little reasons why "Asians" love to do [this], or "Asians" love to do [that]. Gee, oh I wonder, could their *wealth/affluence* be the reason that *rich/affluent* Asians in Asia like to do the things that *rich/affluent* people like to do anywhere in the world!??? I have very affluent Asian married friends who buy wine from Napa Valley by the box -- and they don't drink *any* black tea. *Rich/affluent* Asians in Asia like to play golf (in certain countries), or cricket (in other countries), or tennis (in America): does Gladwell have an "Asian" reason for that too?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"CHARLIE ROSE: I’ll tell you a story and I say this to people all the time. Probably this table where you’re sitting at has been the subject of more conversations with more people, 20 years, five nights a week, 20 years, with more people of achievement than any other table anywhere, I would assume.
Not once when I talk about the elements of achievement has anybody ever said to me I was smarter, I was better looking, I had more social skills. They all said one thing to me, I worked harder. I was more passionate about it, I wanted it more. That’s why I am who I am."
AND WHAT THE HELL *ELSE* DO YOU EXPECT CHARLIE TO SAY...?: WHAT --
"YOU KNOW WE'VE BOOKED A LOT OF PEOPLE AT THIS TABLE WHO, IT TURNED OUT, ARE INTELLECTUALLY OR THEORETICALLY *WEAK*, HAVE GROSS INTELLECTUAL *LAPSES*, OR JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT THE *HELL* THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT!
-- LIKE AMY CHUA OR MALCOLM GLADWELL IN ONE OR MORE OF THESE CATEGORIES
-- BESIDES THE *MORAL* LAPSES OF SOMEONE LIKE MARTIN INDYK AND OTHER _*UNDISCLOSED ZIONISTS*_ REGULARLY ON THE SHOW --" ???
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Warren Buffet believes in the luck of the womb too."
And...
"This book says, they are invariably the beneficiaries of hidden advantages and extraordinary opportunities and cultural legacies..."
And, historically, in the U.S., even up until recent (if not still present) times -- even if you were Asian -- "the luck of that womb" depended *MOST* on whether you were *WHITE* and *MALE*: due to the American legacy, 'hidden advantages', and opportunities afforded to them by *RACISM* (and sexism), and often not even additionally necessarily by their hard work.
I'm sure at Charlie's age (and at the ages of all those other white PBS and commercial TV anchors/hosts, consultants, or regular guests), and when he was (they were) starting their careers and coming up in the American media, he (they) had at least an immense racial advantage -- whether they wanted, or even thought about, it or not.
[For example, the % of Asian UC Berkeley students are not anywhere near represented by the % of Asian UC Berkeley *faculty* (where accpetance is not determined by standardized academic test scores or standardized anything!) -- not even in mathematics, science and engineering -- something many Asian UC Berkeley students have long complained about. And *guess* who runs (on the UC system executive level and on the board of regents) UC Berkeley? In fact, even the Asian student representation might well be even *much higher* than white students if it weren't for still a degree of racism. Or, do you think that California is going to let it's *flagship* university look like you're in Beijing, Seoul, Taipei, and the suburbs and corporate parks of Dehli all combined into one?]
That's why even on news and public affairs television programs -- even on PBS -- that are based out of major media center cities -- like New York and Los Angeles -- with plenty of Asians, you don't see any major national political (or even nonpolitical) news/interview/discussion (even PBS) programs hosted by an Asian. (In fact, Connie Chung was the only Asian I know who once anchored a national news program and that was 'ages' ago -- and we haven't had another one since, even as the Asian population in the U.S. has since grown greatly!)
THERE ONCE -- AND EVEN NOT THAT MANY DECADES AGO -- USED TO BE ALL SORTS OF *ORIENTALISMS* TO EXPLAIN WHY ASIANS -- FROM EAST ASIA, TO SOUTH ASIA, TO WEST ASIA -- WERE "BACKWARD" -- AND EVEN WHY THE JAPANESE ONLY USED TO MAKE LITTLE *TOY* PLASTIC CARS.
JUST LIKE -- JUST BEFORE THESE RECENT ARAB WORLD PRO-DEMOCARCY UPRISINGS -- WHITE "EXPERTS" -- INCLUDING THOSE AT CHARIE'S TABLE -- HAD ALL THOSE REASONS -- HAVING NOTHING TO DO WITH WESTERN POWERS' INSTALLMENT &/OR SUPPORT OF ARAB/MUSLIM DICTATORS -- EVEN MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALIST DICTATORS (AS IN SAUDI ARABIA KUWAIT) -- WHY ARABS/MUSLIMS WERE, SUPPOSEDLY, NOT "*CULTURALLY*" DISPOSED TO DEMOCRACY!
--------------------------------------------------------------------
PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THAT HUMAN CHARACTERISTICS
-- HUMAN ATTRIBUTES OR DEFICITS
-- LIKE "INTELLIGENCE", CURIOUSITY, MENTAL ABILITIES, EDUCATIONAL AND WORK ETHNIC, HONESTY, FAMILY AFFINITY, DESIRE TO SEE THEIR CHILDREN SUCCEED, *TRULY* DEMOCRATIC ORIENTATION, ETC.
-- OR, ON THE DEFICIT SIDE, BEING LAZY, OR CROOKED, OR IMMORAL, OR EVIL, OR EVEN (RELIGIO/)ETHNIC-SUPREMACISTS (WHETHER THE NAZIS IN WWII-ERA GERMANY OR ZIONIST JEWS IN ISRAEL-PALESTINE), ETC.
-- ARE INNATELY, *UNEVENLY* DISTRIBUTED ON THE BASIS OF RACE, ETHNICITY OR CULTURE
--ARE NOT ONLY CALLED *ORIENTALISTS*
--THEY ARE MORE APTPLY JUST CALLED *RACISTS*!
blank 03/04/2011 06:36 AM Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LQj0ufQRdY
SharkswithfrikingLazers 03/04/2011 04:05 AM Report
The hard work comment:
CHARLIE ROSE: I’ll tell you a story and I say this to people all the time. Probably this table where you’re sitting at has been the subject of more conversations with more people, 20 years, five nights a week, 20 years, with more people of achievement than any other table anywhere, I would assume.
Not once when I talk about the elements of achievement has anybody ever said to me I was smarter, I was better looking, I had more social skills. They all said one thing to me, I worked harder. I was more passionate about it, I wanted it more. That’s why I am who I am.
Well not exactly Charlie. Warren Buffet believes in the luck of the womb too. Also, please don't forget Malcolm Gladwell: "Outliers: The Story of Success" http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9855
This book says, "they are invariably the beneficiaries of hidden advantages and extraordinary opportunities and cultural legacies that allow them to learn and work hard and make sense of the world in ways others cannot."
The second half of this book is devoted to the role culture plays in success. Gladwell says rice farming is why Asian populations do better at math.
Parents who believe their kids are going somewhere, this belief propels the kids. It is a wonderful, magical element of success.
Meaningful work is critical for children. As a thought experiment, Gladwell compares the work of Jewish immigrants in the garment industry to the work of Mexican immigrants in the fields and wonders what might have happened in America to each group if their work had been reversed.
blank 03/03/2011 11:19 PM Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0FSYKcV2Mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0WnlgHW8Sk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UHOgkDbVqc
blank 03/03/2011 10:20 PM Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlM7gVn7GzQ
worldwatcher 03/03/2011 09:35 PM Report
Hey! Charlie is a bigger "success" (for a national establishment mainstream media news interviewer) than Amy Chua, her husband or her kids are in their fields. Charlie makes *ggobbss* more money, has a much higher public and celebrity status, and more people hear him in one day than will hear Chua in 20 years of teaching law! She wasn't even a "famous" law school professor (even like some other women) before her "Tiger Mom" book came out -- criticized or condemned by even a consensus of *Asian American* parents (see not only the Asian American comment posts, below, here, but the many more at Amazon under her book listing!). Unlike other (famous) law school professors, I haven't seen her on public or commercial TV interview programs regularly opining her positions on the legal issues of the day.
So, maybe Charlie should interview his *OWN* parent/s so that we can discover and learn *THEIR* secret to raising an "*enormously* successful" kid.
blank 03/03/2011 09:16 PM Report
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/5154
blank 03/03/2011 08:46 PM Report
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/3718
worldwatcher 03/03/2011 08:19 PM Report
Btw, I grew up listening to classical music just about every day: a serious listener, as they say. I even commonly used to do my homework to classical music -- and bebop jazz -- and sometimes even to virtuousic rock or other forms of popular music. These days I listen more to, especially, bebop jazz and, now, old-school rap music (generally political and social commentary rap music), but I still like and sometimes listen to European classical (it's just a matter of hours in a day -- can't listen to every genre every day).
I would have actually wanted to have *heard* Chua's daughter play classical music to see and hear for myself if she was actually as truly "virtuousic" as mom suggests (and as most parents thus want to believe). Not everyone who plays at Carnegie Hall is a virtuouso. (Didn't "Chicago", or the Stones, play at Carnegie Hall, as well as other rock grops?)
Maybe Chua's daughter's undoubtedly expensive music teacher (who, perhaps, had connections from Juliard or whatever music school the teacher graduated from, or previous connections at Carnegie) merely got (or participated in getting) a *student* recital -- or *student* recital competition -- set up at Carnegie Hall. Did Chua's daughter play there as a professional musician? Maybe Chua's daughter quit (presumably European classical) music not only because she didn't like it, or not like practicing (at least in that genre, if at all, as often classical musicians quit classical to play jazz, because jazz is more creative, while performing classical music is just little more than 'wrote' memorization and/or having someone *else* tell you what to do all the time in music performances, which the daughter already had enough of), but because maybe Chua's daughter knew she *wasn't* really that good at it, or not nearly as good as her stage *MOM FROM HELL* thought she (her daughter) was. I'd also want to know not only that the daughter played at Carnegie Hall, but what classical music competitions or awards she actually won!
blank 03/03/2011 07:58 PM Report
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/science/01angier.html
doodah 03/03/2011 06:30 PM Report
Perhaps if she was the liberal hippy type, she'd be the madam of a Chinese whorehouse. .. Would you rather raise your kids next to a Chinese whorehouse-restaurant-laundry mat or a Concerto Pianist Virtuoso?
Count your blessings
mandywu 03/03/2011 06:26 PM Report
Ya, That's why she married a white husband, so her daughters will not get the same treatment as Asians. What a proud "Chinese mother".
worldwatcher 03/03/2011 06:11 PM Report
RE SharkswithfrikingLazers and anyone else like him/her.
'ASIANS ARE [THIS WAY] -- AND ASIANS ARE [THAT WAY]...':
HOW SOMEONE CAN MAKE SUCH *SWEEPING* CATEGORIZATIONS/STATEMENTS -- OFTEN UNKNOWINGLY USING SPECIOUSLY MISLEADING (AND SOMETIMES JUST *FALLACIOUS* OR JUST *FALSE*) STATISTICAL COMPARISONS -- ABOUT A PEOPLE WHO'S ANCESTRAL HOMELAND RANGES FROM THE *PHILIPPINES* TO *TURKEY* -- AND FROM *SIBERIA* TO *SUMATRA* -- AND WOULD ACTUALLY INCLUDE *MUSLIMS*, *PERSIANS* AND SOME *ARABS* -- AND WHO OTHERWISE HAVE LIVED ALL OVER THE WORLD FOR CENTURIES -- IS BEYOND INTELLECTUAL CREDIBILITY!
--EVEN IF IT'S USED AS A CHILD-RAISING BOOK _*MARKETING PLOY*_!!
IN ACADEMIA THESE SWEEPING SPECIOUS STEREOTYPES (POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE, USUALLY MADE BY WHITE PEOPLE ABOUT "THE ASIAN MENTALITY/WAY") ARE COLLECTIVELY CALLED __"ORIENTALISM/S"__!
EXAMPLE: "Asians are often seen as rigid and one-dimensional."
What if someone said that, "Jews/Blacks/whites(gentiles)/Latinos/Arabs are often seen as rigid and one-dimensional"? We would immediately recognize such a statement as at least dubious and at most a form of racism or racial prejudice.
Although excessively "rigid" (to the point of child abuse) and "one-dimensional" ('*MY* WAY!!') seems to describe "The Tiger Mom" -- THE MOM FROM *HELL*!!: generalized, it used to be called "THE DRAGON LADY".
EXAMPLE: "Asian students excel because they are raised to succeed academically: parents instill a love of learning and education in early childhood,..."
How is this not true of *any*, especially, immigrant children of educated -- and, especially, middle-class-&-above parents?
EXAMPLE: "Two Asian women (first generation Korean Americans), a surgeon and an attorney, offer 17 secrets in this book."
Would those be "ANCIENT ASIAN SECRETS"!?
Have you actually *read* that EXAMPLE sentence!!!???
Hint!!: "...a *SURGEON* and an *ATTORNEY*..."!
What kind of schools and universities do you think most children of a *surgeon* and an *attorney* end up at!? -- let alone of *two* university professors -- let alone of two college degreed parents -- or even of just one of these -- *regardless* of nationality, ethnicity or "race".
EXAMPLE: "Asian-Americans also bring home higher incomes than their non-Asian counterparts"
Actually this is, by no means, necessarily true. In fact, because of discrimination in the job, business and financial markets, Asians with *higher* credentials and achievements often make/get *less* than whites not only with the *same* or similar credentials and achivements, but even less than whites with *lower* credentials and achievements, and are often hired less and promoted less. (In the big business world and financial markets, Asian entrepreneurs often have to find a white business partner to have similar access.)
EXAMPLE: "Asian-Americans make up only 4% of the population but they make up a much, much higher percentage of students in top universities."
Well, using California as an example, we must consider the % of Asian students who graduate from high school with the % of white students who graduate from high school. White people in general are themselves a minority(!!) in the state of California. At any rate, European Jews once had this apparent, disproportionate distinction in certain universities, so maybe we should include "ancient Jewish secrets" books about childraising. Btw, I've heard that the % rate of African immigrants with &/or studying advanced degrees in England is higher than that of whites in England.
EXAMPLE: "Confucius held that society..."
Using *Confuscius* to explain all -- especially modern-day -- Asians -- all over the world -- and, especially, all Asian students or their parents -- is like using *Jesus*, and quoting from the *Bible*, to explain all white people -- or all white students and *their* parents.
At any rate, Confucianism was mostly concentrated in China (where, of course, Confucius was from), Japan and Korea -- three of many Asian countries, cultures, subcultures, ethnicities, castes, "races", Asian minorities (in Asia or the West), and age ranges.
Chua's youngest daughter was not very "Confucian" when she, especially as a child, rebelled -- especially *openly* -- against her mother. And you don't think there are *plenty* of Asian youth (even Chinese, Japanese and Korean, and especially Western Asian youth) who talk back to their parents!? Asians don't all live in the Confucian 'Stone Age'.
(And, btw, lots of people of all "races" have gone to even top universities without having had sleepover parties. So, what's the big thing and *fixation* (about *having* or *not* having them) -- that apparently, from what I hear, David Brooks *has* -- on *sleep-overs*. Again, the American fixation with *one* simple magic answer. You can learn group dynamics with *any* group social activity. I learned a helluva lot about group dynamics, when I was a teenager, regularly playing weekend *poker* with one group of my friends, or playground basketball, or touch football in the park, or being on the swim team, or group camping, or hanging out and *voluntarily* playing musical instruments or chess, with other groups of my friends.)
HISTORICAL ORIENTALIST EXAMPLE: "Asians don't value life the way we [Westerners] do."
This statement was made, in a country *founded* on genocide and slavery, by U.S. General Westmorland, as the U.S. was, during the Vietnam war, napalming *millions* of Vietnamese people and thousands of villages.
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{Also, tangential responses to comment posts below: Margaret Stewart has a whole staff of *employees*, in a *business*, helping her and often doing *most* of the operations and set-up work!: she, by no means, does it all herself -- she *bosses* and *delegates*, just like Oprah, and like anyone who owns a business enterprise.
As for fmr. D.C. public school head Michelle Rhee, there is nothing wrong with necessary, even overdue, reforms, but dictatorial, demagogic, hyper-agressive, capriciously arbitrary, scorched-earth, slash-&-burn, take-no-prisoners, management-by-terror never build's your employee's morale and true (not faked) enthusiasm, except for maybe your yes-'men', flunkies and stooges: it only builds *fear* (even in your professionally *good* employees) and *loathing*! In fact, only the professionally weaker employees, or those with no other choice, will stay, while those more qualified will look for jobs elsewhere to get the hell outta there: no one wants to work in an incendiary battlefield! And Rhee supported vouchers -- which would actually eviscerate the kind of public school system she was put in charge of, _and leave a *lot* of children left behind_. Or, do you think that affluent, predominantly white suburban/municipal schools are going to accept a lot of Black and Brown kids, if those kids can even get to those suburbs/municipalities, from the ghetto or barrio?
But, in those affluent white schools, more money to attract more qualified, enthusiastic people [who won't decide to go into other professions instead], and good facilities that educationally and psychologically *support* an atmosphere for enthusiastic teaching and learning, where teachers don't have to buy their own chalk or paper for the kids, always seems to be among the evident solutions: that's where affluent *white* people [including surgeons, attorneys and professors] send *their* kids, even if they go to public schools.}
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PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE SWEEPING SOCIOLOGICAL STATEMENTS ABOUT ASIANS NEED TO GO TAKE A CLASS IN ASIAN OR ASIAN AMERICAN STUDIES AT UC BERKELEY OR SOMEPLACE!
OR MAYBE CHARLIE'S NEXT GUEST SHOULD BE AN ASIAN AMERICAN *ETHNIC STUDIES* OR *SOCIOLOGY* PROFESSOR.
mandywu 03/03/2011 05:57 PM Report
"The ego-driven parent sees the role of parenting as one of controller, limiter, ruler and enforcer. The parents who step forth with punishment, and use shame and ridicule as their means of raising children, are unskilled, unprepared, and parenting out of ego. Ego parents are not ready to change their own behavior and become the teacher and model in their child’s life. They simply want their children to behave. When a child behaves in a manner that is seen as inappropriate, the ego parent doesn’t look at herself first and ask, “What role am I playing in my child acting this way?” She quickly places blame on the child and finds fault outside herself."
http://www.uncommon-parenting.com/2010/04/ego-parenting/
mandywu 03/03/2011 05:44 PM Report
Yes, isn't honesty is one of your moral? So be honest and said it our loud that you are a "American mother" not a "Chinese mother". Isn't don't blame on others one of your other moral? So say it our loud that you choose to parent this controversial way cause you are an ego driven parent and your daughters hated it and it has nothing to do with your ethnicity.
rreyes12 03/03/2011 03:32 PM Report
What disturbs me is how Amy Chua repeatedly committed the sin of omission by deliberately misleading Charlie Rose-- and the world-- about her own roots. Her parents are FILIPINOS of Chinese descent, yet she lets everyone (mistakenly) assume that they are from China. What happened to basic morals and "being honest"?
I am also disappointed that Charlie Rose and his staff did not do a basic bio check; he obviously presumed that her family came from China. Note especially the interchange when Amy Chua slipped and said that her father "hated where he came from." Charlie probed, Amy was taken aback, and then deflected by saying, "We are Americans." Well, yes, but...
I know from personal experience the baggage that comes with being a Filipino in the U.S., especially for an intellectual. I am also a Filipina of Chinese descent; like Amy's father, I came here to pursue graduate studies and establish a name for myself.
I, for one, am appalled by Amy Chua's conscious decision to erase that part of her heritage from the public sphere. In one that is already sorely lacking in Filipino-American voices, she does our community a great disservice and dishonor. As Amy Chua well knows, even bad publicity is still publicity.
mandywu 03/03/2011 02:48 PM Report
At the end of the interview she said she realized there are many kind of Western parent. I wonder why she didn't realize there are many kind of Chinese parent, too. The way she uses "Chinese mother" to disguise her abusive parenting method is what disturbed me.
SharkswithfrikingLazers 03/03/2011 01:48 PM Report
Perhaps a comparison of Amy's book with this one:
"Top Of The Class"-- a book about how Asian parents raise high achievers and how you can too.
http://www.topoftheclassonline.com/
NOTES:
Even though Asians may make up a disproportionate percentage of the student population at the top universities they are also plagued by the highest suicide rates amongst college students and young adults. In addition to being viewed as obedient and gifted in the classroom, Asians are often seen as rigid and one-dimensional.
Two Asian women (first generation Korean Americans), a surgeon and an attorney, offer 17 secrets in this book.
Asian-Americans make up only 4% of the population but they make up a much, much higher percentage of students in top universities. After outperforming their colleagues in school, Asian-Americans also bring home higher incomes than their non-Asian counterparts with a 2002 median income of $52,018 versus the $42,409 household median income for the rest of the country.
The most important thing parents can give to their children is love--but a desire and love for learning and education comes in as a close second.
Asian students excel because they are raised to succeed academically: parents instill a love of learning and education in early childhood, Asian children are taught to delay gratification and embrace sacrifice, they are taught a fierce sense of family pride and loyalty (flip side of this is shame), they are taught the importance of competition by setting short term and long term goals, they are taught to find and associate with like-minded friends and they are taught to regard educators with respect.
"The entire book is centered on instilling discipline in your child." (page 208)
There is a Confucius undertone to the book. Confucius held that society was made up of five relationships: husband and wife, parent and child, elder and younger brother (or generally of elders and youngsters), Ruler and Minister or subject and friend and friend. A society would do well when all the parties performed their roles properly in each of these relationships. Confucius said: "There was Tao (a way or road of righteousness) only when fathers were fathers, when sons were sons, when Rulers were Rulers and when ministers were ministers." Confucius championed strong familial loyalty, ancestor worship, respect of elders by their children and the family as a basis for an ideal government. He expressed the well-known principle, "Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself" (similar to the Golden Rule). The authors of this book seem to hold dear these teachings about relationships--especially parent and child.
Amy Chua said the same thing.
doodah 03/03/2011 11:56 AM Report
...could it be, this is the same woman who fired all those great and wonderful 'teachers' from the Washington DC public school system? The same woman who defied the 'Teachers Union', by putting the children first and firing the slackers. My God! This woman is a Monster!
Now 'Marian Berry Jr. Pimp-Daddy' runs the city (again).
doodah 03/03/2011 08:17 AM Report
...Martha Stewart is a Witch! She must be. How else could she do it all.?.
doodah 03/03/2011 08:13 AM Report
Her biggest crime is being a woman (perhaps an Asian-American Woman) who is intelligent and ENJOYS being a Mother. And is GOOD at it. .. How dare she toot her own horn.
Gloria Steinham must be rolling over in her grave. :) .. possible Rome won't burn so soon :(
SharkswithfrikingLazers 03/03/2011 04:01 AM Report
Charlie--not enough on David Brooks. You left her off way too easy with that sleep over response.
In our school district we offer our Gifted and Talented students "Destination Imagination" for enrichment. It does what David Brooks says:
Managing status rivalries, negotiating group dynamics, understanding social norms, navigating the distinction between self and group — these and other social tests impose cognitive demands that blow away any intense tutoring session or a class at Yale.
Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Carnegie Mellon have found that groups have a high collective intelligence when members of a group are good at reading each others' emotions - when they take turns speaking, when the inputs from each member are managed fluidly, when they detect each others' inclinations and strengths.
Participating in a well-functioning group is really hard. It requires the ability to trust people outside your kinship circle, read intonations and moods, understand how the psychological pieces each person brings to the room can and cannot fit together.
This skill set is not taught formally, but it is imparted through arduous experiences. These are exactly the kinds of difficult experiences Chua shelters her children from by making them rush home to hit the homework table.
"I wish she recognized that in some important ways the school cafeteria is more intellectually demanding than the library" (or the school bus for that matter).
worldwatcher 03/03/2011 12:52 AM Report
Okay, this *final* one (obviously there's much to say about this "Tiger Mom"):
I bet that none of the greats in jazz (especially bebop, my favorite, which I consider the highest form of music, creatively)-- not Charlie Parker, not John Coltrane, not Miles Davis, not Dizzy Gillespie, and I hate to only mention a few for sake of briefness -- or, in the virtuoso blues-jazz-rock guitar idiom, not someone like Stevie Ray Vaughan -- had moms/dads who *forced* them to play hours on straight end with no meal or bathroom breaks, or threatening to force them to stand out in the cold.
In fact, I when I was a kid I had two (among others) friends: one who's parents *forced* him to play a musical instrument, and the other who's parents didn't, but still encouraged, and provided for, his musical studies and playing. Guess which one is still playing music as an adult, and which one had long ago stopped back in childhood/teenagehood.
worldwatcher 03/02/2011 11:58 PM Report
I can't resist!:
This country's most widely read Asian American novelist (and poet), Maxine Hong Kingston, Chinese American, was pushed into Engineering (she started in Chemical Engineering studies), but finally decided, her first year, that it wasn't for her -- and we are all greatly enriched that she went into writing.
Btw, professionally degreed *Arab* immigrants-to-the-West parents can have that same 'Asian American tendency' to push their kids into medicine, engineering, science, law, etc. -- whatever they think has the greatest income and educational and social status, whether or not their kids are happy pursuing and doing that, as opposed to studying and going into a liberal arts profession.
worldwatcher 03/02/2011 11:45 PM Report
One more:
Unlike Charlie and Chua suggested, it's certainly no top priority in the formal law school curricula to get you to question authority -- or to even necessarily examine whether the law is morally adequate, just, fair, lacking, etc.. You certainly didn't see "Professor Kingsfield" in the iconic -- Harvard! -- law school dramatic movie, "Paper Chase", do any of this. In fact, today's average law school graduate is going to come out owing so much money that even those 1st-year law students, even those particular ones, generally, who originally said they wanted to go into public interest law when they graduate, soon realize that they better head for the corporate law jobs screwing over ordinary people or helping rich white men and their corporations settle their (RWM's) asset disputes.
worldwatcher 03/02/2011 11:19 PM Report
Addition:
Chau, the latest "tough love" entrant, reminds me of Bill Cosby, a.k.a. "World's Greatest Dad" -- only he has one alienated, at least once drug-addicted daughter, and a son who was killed under very mysterious circumstances, on a highway with a mysterious woman (who looked like a high-class *something*), in which his son was personally involved. I haven't heard of a single son/daughter of Cosby's that's doing/done anything stellar. "Black Anglo-Saxon" wanna-be, Bill Cosby even castigated Black people who gave their kids "black, Afrocentric or made-up names" -- saying that it sets them up for failure in American society! But, Oprah, of all people, would regularly have him on her show. Well, super-rich celebrities love other super-rich celebrities.
Btw, maybe Cosby hasn't notice that Condoleeza (not someone I morally or politically admire) got a oil supertanker named after her. Maybe he hasn't noticed all those successful Blacks in Hollywood, sports, business, even university professorships, with Afrocentric, Muslim, or invented names.
worldwatcher 03/02/2011 11:02 PM Report
FIRST if all, this latest entrant in the "tough love" category shows once again that -- whatever the topic -- CONTROVERSY SELLS!! -- especially, INCENDIARY CONTROVERSY -- even if it's inane (or, upon examined analysis, patently ridiculous).
In Britain there is this kind of media hype (and hyped news distraction) in what is called "the silly season" (when Parliament and the law courts are not in session) and all kinds of frivolous 'news' stories are then run in the media. And in the U.S. I see that this is the latest American media *GIMMICK*.
So, whether it's other past and present overbearing boors in the Culture Wars, like starting way back, Thomas Sowell, Bill Cosby, D'nesh D'souza, Shelby Steele (as opposed to his much more successful twin brother, Professor Claude Steele, at Stanford who opposes Shelby's conservative views), John McWhorter, and other people of color who could racistly stereotype Black people ("they have too many babies and funny names") -- and this was/is the novelty -- as well as the KKK -- or Phyllis Schlafly, motor-mouth Camille Paglia (what ever happened to her?) or, today, that intellectual giant Sarah Palin (you see, as she and George W. show, you don't need to be intellectually bright at all, or, if you're a woman, necessarily good at anything other than beauty pagents, to become "a success" in the U.S.) -- as anti-feminist women. You can just have a loud, smug, boorish and glib mouth.
SECOND, and MOST IMPORTANT, people should go to the Amazon book review page of "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" and read the very excellent 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., customer reviews/criticisms (by WYM19, 1/19/11, and S.Williams, 1/12/11, and JLee, 2/3/11), and the responses to these criticisms, of Amy Chau and her book -- and many other severe criticisms from Chinese American moms/dads. Yes, Chua may be the quintessential *overbearing* mom, but she is not the quintessential *Chinese-American* mom. And certainly not every kid in China, or Chinese-/Asian America is academically or professionally successful: in fact, the parents' economic level, educational degree and professional (including skilled labor) background, and/or whatver breaks in life you got, still tend to be the biggest factor in the kid's educational and professional "success". But, even Chua's Jewish Yale (/Harvard?) law professor husband said, "If you wwork hard *and* get lucky..."
THIRD, at the end of all this, and probably after much deserved criticism that she's been made aware of -- but still doesn't want to give up all those book royalties -- she finally admits at the *end* of the program what most intelligent people know at the beginning of the program, that: There *IS NO* single formula for raising "successful" kids. Successful: anyone who's well-rounded, open-minded, and wants to live in a society/world of peace with justice and mutual dignity -- or, in short, anyone who is a good person -- and a success for *who* they are (like Martin Sheen's character said in the movie "Wall Street"), not necessarily for where they work (or the size of their wallet) and what they do, employmentwise (we all can't be fortunate enough to necessarily just lovvve our work: some people are just fundamentally trying, with some economic dignity, to feed, clothe and house their families).
But, Americans are always looking for that one -- simplistic -- formula. But when it comes to raising kids -- even identitcal twins having the same parents -- THERE IS NO ONE SIMPLISTIC FORMULA. AND THERE IS NO 'ANCIENT CHINESE SECRET': THAT'S ANOTHER FORM OF ORIENTALISM.
FOURTH, I bet the law faculty at Yale are wondering -- when they are not giggling behind Chua's back -- or when they are not snickering at and greeting her in the law school hallways with, "Hi, *Tiger* Mom..." -- what has become of the "esteemed" Yale school. And if I were one of her kids (and had any healthy self-esteem left), I'd make it a rule for my friends and co-workers that *none* of them could ask me anything about her (my mom), at least not before this (latest?) embarrassing episode in my life, because of my mom, again, blew over! As kids/teenagers, I bet they didn't even let their friends come over to the house when they were growing up, for fear of their friends meeting mom.
FIFTH, I have a female friend who made top grades, was Phi Beta Kappa, got an *undergraduate* paper recommended for an academic journal, got the *maximum* score on her law school admissions test, got accepted to Harvard, Stanford, Berkeley and every law school she applied to, won the moot court written competition, passed a final exam ("by a crazy professor") that most of her classmates failed, was the first in her class to get a law job. And she had loving, *gentle*, caring, nurturing, supportive in whatever she really wanted to do, parents. And I had a Jewish female former roommate who's now a university Vice-Chancellor (I believe that trumps a lowly professor), and her parents were, likewise, supportively gentle, and nuturingly encouraging parents.
My friend went to Berkeley because she felt there was much more *external*, intellectual, cultural, and progressive political stimulus in the Bay Area, than at Harvard, Stanford or Yale -- and she never looked back at her decision. Harvard and Stanford were her *back-up* schools, and she didn't even *bother* with Yale! My friend personally SHUNS (like the plague) law professors like Chua, as well as, in general, law professors (or even attorneys, especially male attorneys) from Ivy League level law schools because, my female friend says, they *tend* to attract the kind of personality -- highly competitive, of restrictive personality dimensions, and often full-of-themselves or otherwise *at least* somewhat obnoxious -- that Chau is (and we obviously know who absolutely *dominated* whom in the marriage, particularly when it came to child-raising). What kid would actually want to live with a parent like that -- a *shrew* (not to mention a highly-opinionated, motor-mouth mom)!
(There was once this TV public service, role-reversal commercial showing a "son" who was treating his dad this way, while trying to teach his dad how to golf, immitating the overbearing sports dad): Son yelling, browbeating and berating his dad, "CONCENTRATE, DAMNIT, CONCENTRATE!! ...NO, YOU'RE GOING TO *BLOW* IT!! YOU'RE MESSING UP!! ...WATCH IT, WATCH IT!!" [Dad misses the putt.] Son shakes his head like he's disowning his dad and says, "I *KNEW* YOU WERE GOING TO MISS... *PPA-THE-TIC*"..." His dad, head bowed, feels like sh*t.)
And actually, Chau's youngest daughter still wasn't very "Chinese" because a kid in traditional China would have never lashed back at her parents -- maybe committed suicide one day (like many kids/students in Japan), but never lashed back at such a parent. And traditionally in China, as well as many other countries in the world, including once in the U.S., children (and women) were treated like *property*! -- which is how Chau seemed to treat her kids. Maybe her youngest daughter finally rebelling saved the daughter from *commiting* suicide. But, Asians (immigrants or children of immigrants) are well-represented in prestigious universities because (like children of Jewish immigrants) they know (knew) that they face substantial racial/ethnic discrimination in white-American society -- so they knew that they had to be better to get just as far (and often not even just as far, adjusting for the *same* educational level, degree and achievements, as Asians are still discriminated against in the American/Western business world) -- just like middle-class-and-above *Black* parents tell their kids. Go get a recording, or look on YouTube or some other audio/video archive to see how public speaker and author Sister Souljah counsels Black girls about education, working hard, and self-esteem -- yeah, the same Sister Souljah that Bill Clinton politically attacked and tried to 'Willie Hortonize' when Slick Willie's then campaign poll numbers were low.
Also, Asian (in Asia) society is structure differently: high test scores are mandatory for getting into a good university -- not your parents' connections (not like Daddy Bush's) with someone in the elite or university hierarchy. You'll see, by the 3rd/4th generation, Asian American students will start to be more like white-Americans (who've gotten lazy because the U.S. itself was getting fat and lazy -- and, in fact, eroding it's educational system -- living off of stealing land and labor from oppressed mminority Americans -- who were discriminated against in the educational/employment competition) and exploited Third World peoples -- in almost every respect, including academic achievement or lack thereof. Also, it's not like kids in China are all successful.
SIXTH, and this get me not only to how such Asians are used by the media in white-America's RACIAL PECKING ORDER -- and the sweeping stereotypes she engages in (including putting down other ethnic groups) -- as "The Model Minority" -- but *never* "The Model Americans", since Asian kids are "all" supposedly academically kicking even white ass in the U.S.'s most presitgious universities (and math, science, music, and even gradeschool spelling contests) -- but notice, now you're starting to see an apparent shift, more *South* Asians than *East* Asians: "So why can't you Blacks and Brown people do it, instead of complaining all the time!?", white conservatives and their colored sociopolitical lackeys demand to know -- ignoring *WHICH* Asians are successful and *WHICH* Asians' kids are *not*, or working long hours in low-paid mom-&-pop restaurant jobs, working in American sweatshops or as domestic workers in hotels, or who's kids are even in *gangs*! But, that's a story that the white-declared "the model minority" myth steadfastly IGNORES!
Also, CHUA IS TRYING TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. Having had her simplistic attitude and book roundly debunked, she now says that "it's not a parenting manual", but then she still goes on to doctrinairily and dogmatically say that, "Look what *I* did...: you can't argue with report cards and a kid who played at Carnegie Hall" [I myself am sure as much through connections as through talent].
SEVENTH, and from sixth, we get this simplistic, 'model immigrant', or children of immigrants, flagwaiving. First of all, anyone working-class who (voluntarily) immigrated to this country ddid so because they couldn't make it wherever they immigrated from: so, if they are so smart and hardworking, then why couldn't they make it wherever they came from? And it certainly isn't true that European parents are stricter than American parents. Perhaps Chau isn't aware of rampant teenage drunkeness in certian European countries (like Iceland), the teenage hooliganism on the streets of London, or that Scandinavian parents often let their teenage daughter's boyfriend sleep over (i.e., and have sex) in her room at home!
So, this simplistic "American values" flagwaiving b.s. ignores the "American values" that this country was actually built on: brutal theft of the land of many nations of Native People; genocide of said Native People's (most of whom are oppressed to this day, with a median life expectancy of 45 years, on or around "Indian reservations", many of which are smaller than state parks, wildlife refugees, and even bird sanctuaries); the brutal enslavement of millions upon millions of generations upon generations of black people providing 250 years of free labor and another 100 years of nearly free, 'semi-slave wages' or highly economically discounted labor; slave or semi-slave Latino labor; slave or semi-slave Asian immigrant labor (you know, the people who were enslaved or semi-enslaved to build the railroads and all; oppressive discrimination and even internment and tthe subsequent theft of property against Japanese-Americans (except in Hawai'i where they worked mostly for *white* people); even domestic slavery, economic and professional discrimination for most white-American women. For the majority of the history of this country the majority of the people couldn't even vote!! Let's see, there was outright armed theft of land from Mexico. And near the turn of the 1900's the U.S. embarked upon *empire* -- commencing with the Spanish-American war, going right into the *genocidal* Philippine-American war. What country *couldn't* greatly succeed with the *CENTURIES* OF THEFT of all that land and labor. And then there was Vietnam -- where the U.S. thought that little yellow people are too *stupid* to ever know how to defeat the U.S. war machine. Discrimination against Asians in the U.S. was so rampant that not even an Asian (Bruce Lee) could play an Asian in a dramatic television show concept (the TV show "Kung Fu") that he created! -- a *white* guy played an Asian (in fact, played a *Chinese* person)! So, these are "the American values" that this country was built on -- which "model minority" Asian Americans who get to teach at Yale or get other high-status jobs must IGNORE the facts to be acceptable to most white people/employers!
And this whole idea of "American values" is a highly nationalistic, even jingoistic, arrogant (and racist, since it fundamentally applies by *white*-Americans to *white*-Americans), like white-Americans work harder, are more honest, are smarter, etc., even love their kids more than people, who by accident of birth, happen to live, say, in Scandinavia! -- or for that matter, in Tunisia, Egypt, or anywhere else in the Middle East (where the U.S. has/had installed *dictators* -- is *that* an "American value" too? -- to keep the people down)! And it's that American attitude that gets the U.S. into trouble all over the world: and we wonder, "Why do they hate us?"
The sad thing is, had Chua and her book not been so superficial -- the kind of book that the American media usually *hypes* -- there actually are things (positives to emulate, such as study styles and habits, putting off getting involved in the emotional landmines of boyfriend-girlfriend relationships before college, and such as the fact that many Asian American parents are actually willing to truly *sacrifice*, greatly so if necessary, their material lifestyle so that their kids can maximize their educational opportunities, as well as negatives to avoid, especially the fact that many Asian immigrant kids complain that their parents don't really pay attention to them, and often ignore their emotional needs, unless they are doing badly in school) that American society *can* learn from Asian society and Asian American (really, too general and sweeping a term) society.
I think that most of us can't wait until Amy Chua's 15 minutes of fame are up!
RegularViewer 03/02/2011 08:54 PM Report
Anne, I missed the discussion on striking. Where was that? Was there something on physical harm that I missed?
anne4444 03/02/2011 08:39 PM Report
If the same law would apply to other countries, many parents would be charged for child abuse, especially related to physical abuse.
Striking for excellence, will turn into striking for jail time.
Tiger_Moms_Network 03/02/2011 08:15 PM Report
Tweets From Twitter@TigerMomsNet
Business Insider posted a Tiger Mother like Amy Chua pushed her daughter to porn star: no pushy Americans no porn star? infact MORE!
Logic Error: One case of Asian porn star is generalized to the whole world. In fact, care-free Americans more likely grow into a porn star.
American parents, do you wish your kids live a CAREE-FREE childhood while ending up with Dr HARVARD's Plumber or wining alot trophies?
China has pushy Tiger Moms Culture, yet China only has 6.6 suicide rate while US cares kids free at 14 suicide rate per 100K whites. PITY!
All pissed failed US parents use all bogus data to support their point Tiger Cubs are inferior: In fact, they're stronger see blog article.
Never seen American mainstream whites so pissed off like this in Tiger Mother Amy Chua's debate: White Kids always losers in school!
Why whites have almost 2~3x suicide rate 14vs6 than US Asians? Due to longterm exposure to losers cases in any subject. DEPRESSION!
Factoring in current deep depression of those who lost jobs/homes, US may have 3x suicide rate than China. Tiger Moms CAN save whites!
Asians win all trophies in school across the board, thereby building confidence to extreme and thus reducing depression to lowest point.
The more drug uses/sex parties a college has, the more white kids walk on that campus: WHITES ARE INFERIOR as hinted by Amy Chua?
Why Asians only concentrate on Ivy Leagues/top colleges like Stanford MIT Berkeley & UCLA while whites crowd in community colleges?
UC system as Berkeley/UCLA admit an increasing 40% Asians yet a diminishing 33% whites: No Asians NO 1st-tier Berkeley UCLA glory.
American Asians under PUSHY TIGER MOMS have 1/2~1/3 suicide than whites: because Asians winning trophies have no peer pressure.
Read more on Tiger Moms Parenting Battle Hymn facebook fan page at #fb/Professors.Forum or Blog site at Blog . TigerMoms . net
PISA shows CHINESE ARE SUPERIOR scoring #1 across the board in Reading, Math & Science and China's Patents Filing 5x more than US.
Creativity: US'09 domestic patents application vs international - 225K/231K; China'10 1.1m/113K, 5x more patents filed than US, US IS DOOMED
China files patents at a yearly 36% growth rate, but our mainstream US media like CNN FOX WSJ all thought Americans more creative: DRUGGED?!
2010 China's astounding growth rate in filing new international patent application under PCT increased by 56% to 12,337, ranked World's #4.
India 2009 witnessed a 15% growth at 1109 international patents filed, <1/10 China's #. But India's filing in 5 years has remained stagnant.
Japan's Panasonic ranks #1 among global companies with 2,154 patents filed, followed by China's ZTE with 1,863, and US Qualcomm with 1,677.
In top 10 international patents filing firms, 6 from China, Japan & Korea; no Indian firm listed in top 99 applicants. CHINESE ARE SUPERIOR?
Why that India guy rrafay FARTED China has no creativity, misleading millions of Americans here? In terms of creativity, India only at less than 1/10 scale.
Everything we bought mostly made-in-China: iPad/iPhone/TV/Toys/CarParts, WalMart imports >60%, Target >80% form China. All patents built-in.
RegularViewer 03/02/2011 07:05 PM Report
After the many, many shows on the brain, didn't we learn that the pre-frontal cortex (responsible for planning complex cognitive behaviors, personality expression, decision making, and moderating correct social behavior) doesn't develop fully until the twenties?
I completely agree that finding your passion could not be more important. But to execute that passion, a person must have a body, mind, and spirit that is healthy and strong from having a foundation in a fertile and safe environment. I believe that Amy is only advocating for this.
Having a scottish-english ancestry myself and being around a mix of asian and wasp parents, I have to say that those with a background like mine, feel good about parenting if they throw lots of money at it, focus on their own lives, and let nannies or peers raise their kids (so the kids can learn great SOCIAL skills). It was the asians who were so completely involved and focusing on a strong family and education of all kinds. It's clearly the bleeding obvious that this is a generalization, but it is one I make after 15 consecutive years of observation, from nursery school to grade 12. At school, when it came time to choose alternate parents in case of disaster, I always chose the asian parents for my little blond boy as I knew they would be the most committed and responsible.
I found Amy non-evasive and open. And it must be hard considering what she must be going through.
robdverity 03/02/2011 05:12 PM Report
So she cared enough to commit her time. It paid off. For those too lazy and obtuse to see the benefits, pay your offsprings drug related fines and feel superior (if you can).
2NDS0N 03/02/2011 04:32 PM Report
It seems to me, from the interviews I've seen, people are much to quick to judge her. She seems fairly balanced, perhaps not perfect, but then who is. She loves her children, her children love her, and they're not psychologically damaged in any way. It's not as if she's an abuser (though the more radically inclined may disagree), she just did her flawed best to raise her children with those values and abilities she believed would serve them well throughout their lives. Children really are resilient and are capable of discerning the difference between "tough love" and unloved.
JohnGelles 03/02/2011 04:05 PM Report
This morning at breakfast I watched, on my digital TV recorder TWICE, Amy Chua and Gita Wirjawan, Chairman of Indonesia’s investment coordinating board.
They discussed with Charlie Rose two fundamental institutions -- the individual family with children (competing with all other families), and the collective nation state with a political economy (competing with all other nations to be all that they can be.)
Perhaps competition is not the foremost aspect of the discussions. Happiness or virtue are other possibilities.
Amy Chua wrote a memoir with the consent of family members she wrote about. Gita Wirjawan is concerned with Indonesia and its people and their future as a democratic political economy with needs -- and the means to meet them richer in natural resources than most other nations.
One can hardly think of better topics than these about which to ponder. Yet their scope is so broad there is little chance to find a dramatic issue to contest.
You may say the issue over Amy Chua is to read the book or wait for the movie. And the issue with Gita Wirjawan is to visit Indonesia or be content to know it's there.
In a way, the family and the nation are what the human brain can make of them. Charlie Rose series on that brain explained a lot. If families are failing to bring the happiness they crave -- it's all the fault of that brain. And the same may be said for nations. So we can go from too broad a scope for excitement -- to even a broader scope.
Or we can narrow our scope to the latest news that followed my second view of CR's show: it was Supreme Court's decision where only Justice Alito got it right.
..... He found freedom of speech is not freedom to trash a private funeral to call attention to your ideas. He found that real justice is not the product of the rule of law: it is the product of special genius that he has and eight other justices do not.
erichfromm 03/02/2011 04:03 PM Report
Mr. Rose,
No wonder Ms. Chua is not married! Her split facial features betrays her inner fears. Perfect personality for a lawyer! Tough love is an oxymoron - the better phrase is wise love.
Ms. Chua is a very poor listener and therefore not as wise as her narcissistic self-belief. She constantly interrupted the interviewer and answered without pause. Notice how much finger pointing there was in the interview - a sign of both sides frustration with trying to control.
She has little to teach other than how not to be. I want to meet the brilliant public relations person that got her the air time. Little wonder she has attacted the flak she deserves.
Derek Hoggett
Single parent
President
The Fromm Club
rrafay 03/02/2011 02:29 PM Report
I am sad that Charlie was not more probing.
I am a Canadian of Arab/Indian origin that speaks Mandarin and has lived in Beijing, Shanghai, Singapore, and Hong Kong.
She has a very insular view.
There is no talk about the challenges 'Tiger Parents' such as her are encountering today in those countries. Namely,
1. Suicide rates amongst those that cannot handle the pressure such parents place upon them
2. A profound lack of creativity and creativity-based innovation within Chinese society. The Chinese have perfected incremental innovation and replicating other technologies but have been unable to lead disruptive or creative innovation. As a result, IT changes are happening in the US and India, not China. Secondly, Chinese film, music, and literature are terribly bland.
3. Elder Abuse is rampant in the Chinese communities of Canada and the United States. There is no emotional connection in many of these relationships, where children feel they are only loved if they are successful. A recent case in Toronto of a Chinese mother being kept in a garage in -20C weather led to the discovery that this was rampant in the Chinese Canadian community.
In sum, she is insular, wrong, and foolish.
davedewirks 03/02/2011 02:17 PM Report
Excruciating. Please, no more of this publicity hound.
Dale Keys
Boise
REMant 03/02/2011 12:16 PM Report
I'd have rather heard her on the subject of her discipline, but I did hear in this a lot of talk about parenting with little or no talk of the assessment of actual outcomes. Just some hypotheses about achievement. How can you evaluate something without that? I would say if you raise a kid in a Chinese way, you will get, if the genes are right, a Chinese kid. This is not, however, a Confucian society. Washington, DC is especially not. There are tho a lot of them in symphony orchestras nowadays. And I would agree with her, and have said for years, that many if not most of our most successful citizens either were educated overseas, or are the children, as she, of immigrant parents. I'm less sure in what way they should be considered successful. Is there anything else that need be said? I presume she did not bind their feet.
She's probably right that this is part of the culture wars, like Keynesianism and permissiveness generally. Undeniably, however, self-esteem can be jealous and arrogant or knowledgeable and deserved.
Ppl learn in different ways and have different characteristics. I flunked first year algebra, and had to take it over in summer school, when I got an A on every test. I never had any trouble with geometry, however, and did go on to trig, calculus and statistics, but I can't say I take to math. It's not that I can't do it, or see its application, but I don't like to think in those terms. I've never really been interested in learning other languages either.
I'd say I don't learn until I can see the principle involved, but if you are good at memorization, you can go very far in our system. I tho had to give up a role in a play, because I couldn't learn the lines, at least not without giving it more attention than I wanted, and I don't think I can recite a single poem or remember all the words to any song, despite probably recognizing hundreds of them. I couldn't write well until I was out of college even though I had had instruction in expository writing in high school, which I remember to this day (tho rarely follow, unless it is something necessarily pedagogic). That was possibly due to lack of practice, but I was always, on the other hand, very good at designing and problem-solving, and had, at least according to my college advisor, a natural talent for psychology. It says something about our educational system tho that when I took so many shop classes in high school, they tried to demote me to a lower track. I do, BTW, know music quite well, but don't think I have the coordination for a lot of musical instruments, despite being ambidextrous, and ppl who've seen me make or fix things would be surprised. Heifetz, incidentally, didn't like to practice. One thing, I think, that must be overcome in order to learn to write well, is not wanting to read what you've written. That probably applies to a lot of other stuff, too. We are not a reflective society anymore, if we ever really were.
After observing kids most of my life I've come to the conclusion that there is a major division between people who can conceptualize and those who either cannot, or do not, and organize things in a chronological fashion. I have known some, who cannot explain anything without telling a story. On the other hand, I almost never read novels, and probably could never write one. Prof Chua might have the opposite problem. I would say conceptualization is not strong among lawyers, who are, however, exceptionally verbal, and very frequently poets, novelists and songwriters. This, however, has had some unfortunate consequences in the law. I think, too, that it probably underlies cultural, religious and ethical differences. One might say that some just want to muddle thru and others evaluate, predict, organize and plan. But I could not say which should be considered the more creative, as it would seem to be difficult to live with one and not the other. Aristotle said that, and it is surprising that 2000 yrs later the two sides should so utterly fail to understand each other. I mean, we have fought real wars over this. A lot of them.
One simple, and irrelevant, thing about learning, which, I think, has not received the kind of attention it deserves is the role of caffeine, found in all sorts of soda, as well as, chocolate. Besides interfering with concentration, it interferes with sleep cycles, causing tiredness, and even small amounts build up in the body.