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BENEZRAA  02/04/2011 01:24 PM Report

DEAR WW,

You have your own immoral, racist, supremacist ideology (or dogma or religion) based on your own beliefs, whatever they may be, which focus hatred upon Jews and Whites. For all your proclamations to morality and world equality, you give your true colors to historical ignorance, bigotry, disrespect, and uncivil discourse. No one is perfect -- not me, not you, not anyone -- and no one has a monopoly on the truth. Were it so, there would be no mutual human need and no reason or basis for conversation. I am sure there is a side to you that is everything you proclaim yourself to be: moral, anti-racist, etc. I know I have my own failings; but, I also have my good side. Perhaps one day, sooner rather than later, you will see the good in both of us. May you have a wonderful weekend full of love, kindness, and mercy.

worldwatcher  02/04/2011 09:48 AM Report

Hey BENEZRAA, you can babble on and on and on however you want.

BOTTOM LINE:

WE *MORAL, ANTI-RACIST PEOPLE* _JUST *DON'T* BELIEVE IN_ ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST STATES -- anti-racist Jews (anti-Zionist Jews) and anti-racist non-Jews alike -- whether it's a white-Christian-supremacist state or a largely white-Jewish-supremacist state.

AND *NO AMOUNT* OF ETHNIC OR RELIGIO-ETHNIC SUFFERING -- OR, SUPPOSEDLY, "GOD'S ANCIENT PROMISE", OR ANCIENT RELIGIOUS ANCESTORS' PRESENCE -- ENTITLES *ANY* PEOPLE TO EVEN THEIR OWN RACIST / ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST STATE.

PERIOD.

BENEZRAA  02/01/2011 06:33 AM Report

Q: ARE JEWS THE UNTOUCHABLES OF CHRISTIANITY?

A: FROM THE JEWISH PERSPECTIVE, JEWS ARE NOT THE UNTOUCHABLES OF CHRISTIANITY.

Gandhi writes that Jews are the "Untouchables" of Christianity. At it's simplest metaphorical level the idea rings true, keeping in mind that most metaphors ought not be taken literally, as the intent of a metaphor is to convey a primary concept. In this case the primary concept has deep application in that in the classical context of Christian society, Jews may live, outcast from mainstream Christian society, with unique permissions, proscriptions, freedoms and obligations.

Jewish perspective is quite different. Jews are a People united by Faith, Law, and History, who may suffer or prosper as Exiles throughout the Diaspora, who suffered and prospered as a formational nation pre-Sinai, who suffered and prospered in Ancient Israel, who currently suffer and prosper both in modern Israel and Diaspora, and who will suffer and prosper in the unknown future. There are those, who may argue, that the future wxists now in the sense that it is believed by many that that Mankind is now living in Messianic times.

This belief, that Mankind now lives in Messianic times, is shared by many Christians, Muslims, and Jews -- each according to the doctrines of their faiths. Those, who see history this way, see themselves as holy warriors in the end times in which their respective unique faith will emerge triumphant. This mentality may contribute to war in our time that will make a crater of the holy land, after which destruction any survivors may continue conflict in order to assert or maintain ownership of the holy crater. Such megalomania endangers the world to the short term profit of military industry and for the entertainments of those, who like the audience at a schoolyard brawl or arena of gladiators, place their bets and egg on the contestants, be those contestants willing or unwilling, voluntary or involuntary, devoted to violence or devoted to non-violence.

In Islam as in Christianity there is the "untouchable" role of the Jews, formally as "Dhimmi" -- the "pact of protection" according to Sharia Law by which the second class status of "the People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) are in theory protected but in practice too often persecuted.

In both Christian and Muslim lands Jews have thrived or suffered, essentially "untouchables" to those societies; yet, through it all, by Jewish perspective Jews are not "untouchable" to themselves, a unique People with a unique Purpose and Home in the world.

BENEZRAA  02/01/2011 04:56 AM Report

GANDHI'S COMPASSION

A close friend of mine, a Purple-Hearted American War Veteran, once told me of an extraordinary ethical morality instructed by Gandhi. I share this instruction, as it touches a humble element of truth. Seeking non-violence and yet enmeshed in the middle of the contemporary conflict in India between Muslims and Hindus, Gandhi was approached one day by a Hindu man in custody of a Muslim boy. The Hindu man had taken the life of the boy's Muslim father. Distraught, the Hindu man had compassion towards the now fatherless Muslim boy, and sought advice from Gandhi. The Hindu man inquired of Gandhi, should he raise the boy as a Hindu or a Muslim. Gandhi replied that it was the obligation of the Hindu man to raise the child as the child's father would have, ergo, as a Muslim. And the man did so.

worldwatcher  01/06/2011 08:27 AM Report

re BENEZRAA 01/04/2011 12:23 AM -- WHO CAN'T EVEN *SAY* "PALESTINIANS" (except when claiming that *European/Ashkenazi/foreign* Jewish invaders and settler-colonizers in Israel/Palestine are *really* the 'Palestinians' and therefore have more rights than the native people):

ISRAEL IS A RACIST JEWISH-SUPREMACIST STATE and political ZIONISM IS A RACIST IDEOLOGY *because* politically Zionist Jews invaded and subjugated the rights of the native people of Palestine -- the Palestinians -- under the rights of an invading, largely European, population employing a, otherwise completely ridiculous, political and Biblical (much of it having *no* archeological/scientific evidence) fundamentalism and even outright mythology/lies (foremostly, the "land without a people" claim) -- only possible because it was supported by racist imperialist Western powers who thought they could have an advantage (rather than the constant trouble it would inevitably bring those European powers) with a foreign European outpost in the middle of the Middle East.

To the Zionist/Israeli claim that, "Israel protects the European West from its Arab enemies in the Middle East", is often the rebuttal, "But, before Israel existed, the European West *HAD NO* Arab enemies in the Middle East."

------------------------------------------------------------

Again, see below (or online [From UK Indymedia and other online Web sources]):

worldwatcher 10/23/2010 12:41 PM

"20 Parallels of Zionism with Nazism"

And as parallel #20 shows, the Zionists -- as many anti-Zionists say -- LITERALLY LEARNED FROM THE NAZIS!

And, as anti-Zionist scholar and author Lenni Brenner wrote in one of his landmark books, EARLY ZIONISTS CERTAINLY *COLLABORATED* WITH THE NAZIS -- EVEN OFFERING TO FIGHT ON THE SIDE OF THE NAZIS, if the Nazis would have supported the Zionists *own* planned racist *Jewish*-supremacist state in Palestine.

------------------------------------------------------------

Also, again, quoting Albert Einstein: "It would be my greatest sadness to see Jews do to Palestine's Arabs MUCH of what Nazis did to Jews."

------------------------------------------------------------

Also, again, this is what a true anti-racist, and thus anti-Zionist, Jewish activist said about Zionism and Israel (see, "Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew") -- author, TIM WISE:

"Surely it is not for this ignoble end, that six million died."

------------------------------------------------------------

Also, again, this is what GANDHI said about political Zionism:

"Surely it [ZIONISM] would be A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY."

------------------------------------------------------------

So, BENEZRAA, you can keep spouting and spinning Israeli/Zionist propaganda and (im)moral diversions and outright lies all you want, but it still doesn't make them true.

BENEZRAA  01/04/2011 12:23 AM Report

ISRAEL IS NOT A WHITE RACIST SUPREMACIST STATE.

Not that a statement to that effect will change the bigoted views of those, who propagandize in this way, who speak of Zionism and Nazism, as if they were one and the same thing; Nazism and Zionism are not even remotely similar.

Only an ignoramus makes comments of the type that lump Nazism and Zionism together ... and to then have the gall to claim that the existence of Israel dishonors the victims of Nazism! Israel's existence is a testament to both the victims and the survivors of both the Holocaust perpetrated by the Nazis and that perpetrated by Arab hosts joined at the hip with the Nazis.

As to the "dustbin of history", moral persons do hope, pray, and work towards a resolution of the Arab-Israeli Conflict in such a way as to make it possible for Jews and their Arab cousins to find a way to genuine peace.

Jews have no desire nor intent to erect memorials to the destruction of Arabs, nor of anyone else. Jews do memorialize the Holocaust; it is not a celebration except perhaps in the sense of celebrating life that once was in spite of great tragedy.

Perhaps one day together Jews and Arabs will memorialize an end to conflict, relegating the Arab-Israeli Conflict to the "dustbin of history" -- without tragedy.

WW suggests that "the Palestinians" will inevitably "erect"

... "memorials" to the "tragedy" of the "rightfully" destroyed "racist state" [of Israel]. Jews are Palestinians by original definition. The world and WW have conveniently forgotten that. And WW would relegate the State of Israel to the "dustbin of history", denying the bigotry of Islamist Supermacism, yet, critical of alleged Israeli white supremacism. Respectfully, Israelis are multinational and a fifth of Israelis are not even Jewish. Israel provides citizenship and safehaven to Christians, Bahai, Buddhists, Hindus, Druse -- and Muslims! More than a million Muslims are Israeli citizens! There is no such similar safehaven in the Muslim world today, and the Jihadists blame Israel and the USA. WW, if you remotely comprehend reality, then open your mind up to the reality that it is a movement of Islamist Supemacism to the tune of at least a fifth of the world's geography and population that seeks to crush tiny Israel -- not the other way around, as you falsely pose the conflict.

worldwatcher  12/16/2010 07:53 AM Report

To shackwell:

Anyway, you can say whatever you want to say. I know that racists want what racists want, and there is nothing against racist justifications that you can tell racists, but, as I told BENEZRAA, I don't believe in white-supremacist states -- whether they are Nazi or Zionist -- and nor does any moral person -- and NO AMOUNT of suffering justifies an immoral system -- and, in fact, being racist, in turn, would dishonor the prior victims (in this case, those who died in the Jewish holocaust). Every such racist state or racist state ideology has rightfully ended up in the dust bin of history -- and, by that record, so, in time, will, eventually, Zionism: it's a matter of sooner or later and how great the final tragedy will number -- and the memorials that the Palestinians will erect to remind _NA_tionalist _ZI_onist *Jews*.

worldwatcher  12/16/2010 07:27 AM Report

To shackwell 12/08/2010 05:12 PM:

First of all, I'm not a pacifist: I use my native-born American privilege (i.e., I can't be denaturalized and/or deported) to OPENLY and PUBLICLY support the ARMED STRUGGLE of the brutally oppressed -- whether they were the Jews of Nazi Germany, or ARE the Palestinians of Zio-Nazi -- _NA_tionalist _ZI_onist -- Greater Israel. Seems to me that the Jews of Nazi Germany all-too-easily lined up for the death trains. I once read that no less than Ariel Sharon once said that at least he admires the Palestinians for being willing to FIGHT against their dispossession and removal. All propaganda aside, Zionist/Israel's founders knew exactly what they were doing to the Palestinian people -- and Israel's founders said so at the time when European racism allowed even Zionist Jews to openly say so at the time. So, even if nonviolently, I'm sure that Gandhi didn't mean that European Jews should just quietly walk to, just queue up for, and voluntarily board the death trains.

Btw, when the choice was actually saving ordinary Jews or having Israel, Zionist Jewish founders of Israel, always chose Israel. And, in fact, Israel's first Prime Minister, David ben Gurion, said that if the choice were between saving even HALF the Jewish children of Nazi Germany or having the state of Israel, he would chose the latter!

And, btw, but for the British in North Africa during WWII, whom the pre-Israel Zionists violently turned against in Palestine, the Nazi war machine would have reached and overwhelmed Palestine, instead of the Zionists later militarily overwhelming Palestine and taking it from the Palestinians. The Zionists have been trying (with great success) to wipe out Palestine like the Nazis tried to wipe out Poland! See comment post below (or online if it has been removed by 'Charlie's Zionist faction'): "20 Parallels of Zionism with Nazism".

(And not even Gandhi was an absolutist about nonviolent moral resistance, as he said about, back then, Palestinian or black South African resistance, where he said that solely nonviolent resistance was not possible, and would not have worked, at the time because the state/oppressor largely didn't care about using overwhelming, indiscriminate and wanton homicidal force. The state didn't care if 'you' *were* nonviolent. Israel has merely refugeed, exiled or summarily deported -- when not just shot, imprisoned or killed -- any Palestinian 'Martin Luther Kings'. Unlike the U.S. during American apartheid (Jim Crow), neither apartheid South Africa or apartheid (Zionist) Israel were ever pretending to be "the Leader of the Free World".)

Second, this is what a true anti-racist, and thus anti-Zionist, Jewish activist said about Zionism and Israel (see, "Reflections on Zionism from a Dissident Jew", by Tim Wise):

"Surely it is not for this ignoble end, that six million died."

shackwell  12/08/2010 05:12 PM Report

@ worldwatcher. Gandhi in your letter below, in 1938 advised Jews to:

"If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment"

Six million deaths showed that Hitler called that bluff and that anti-Semitism and hatred prevailed.

Israel is not perfect, but it deserves to exist alont the 1967 borders alongside a palestinian state.

worldwatcher  11/21/2010 09:48 PM Report

Gandhi's Statement on Palestine (sentence/phrase capitalization added for emphasis) was written by Gandhi over 70 years ago!:

The Jews In Palestine, 1938

By M.K. Gandhi

Several letters have been received by me asking me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew question in Palestine and the persecution of the Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I venture to offer my views on this very difficult question.

My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known them intimately in South Africa. Some of them became lifelong companions. Through these friends I came to learn much of their age long persecution. They have been the untouchables of Christianity. The parallel between their treatment by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been invoked in both cases for the justification of the inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from the friendships, therefore, there is the more common universal reason for my sympathy for the Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the requirements of justice. The cry for the national home for the Jews does not make much appeal to me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like other peoples of the earth, make that country their home where they are born and where they earn their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French. IT IS WRONG AND INHUMAN TO IMPOSE THE JEWS ON THE ARABS. WHAT IS GOING ON IN PALESTINE TODAY CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED BY ANY MORAL CODE OF CONDUCT. The mandates have no sanction but that of the last war. Surely IT WOULD BE A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and bred. The Jews born in France are French in precisely the same sense that Christians born in France are French. If the Jews have no home but Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced to leave the other parts of the world in which they are settled? Or do they want a double home where they can remain at will? This cry for the national home affords a colourable justification for the German expulsion of the Jews.

But the German persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with religious zeal. For, he is propounding a new religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the name of which any inhumanity becomes an act of humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is being visited upon his whole race with unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a war against Germany to prevent the wanton persecution of a whole race, would be completely justified. But I do not believe in any war. A discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is, therefore, outside my horizon or province.

But if there can be no war against Germany, even for such a crime as is being committed against the Jews, surely there can be no alliance with Germany. How can there be alliance between a nation that claims to stand for justice and democracy and one which is the declared enemy of both? Or is England drifting towards armed dictatorship and all it means? Germany is showing to the world how efficiently violence can be worked when it is not hampered by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous, terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness.

Can the Jews resist this organized and shameless persecution? Is there a way to preserve their self-respect, and not to feel helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is. No person who has faith in a living God need feel helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God more personal than the God of the Christians, the Mussalmans or the Hindus, though as a matter of fact, in essence, He is common to all and one without a second and beyond description. But as the Jews attribute personality to God and believe that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not to feel helpless.

If I were a Jew and were born in Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would claim Germany as my home even as the tallest gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment. And for doing this I should not wait for the fellow Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have confidence that in the end the rest were bound to follow my example....

...And now A WORD TO THE JEWS IN PALESTINE. I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT THEY ARE GOING ABOUT IT IN THE WRONG WAY. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert the Arab heart. The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the Jewish heart... They will find the world opinion in their favour in their religious aspiration. There are hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if they will only discard the help of the British bayonet. As it is, THEY ARE co-sharers with the British in DESPOILING A PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE NO WRONG TO THEM.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable encroachment upon their country. BUT ACCORDING TO THE ACCEPTED CANONS OF RIGHT AND WRONG, NOTHING CAN BE SAID AGAINST THE ARAB RESISTANCE IN THE FACE OF OVERWHELMING ODDS.

LET THE JEWS WHO CLAIM TO BE THE CHOSEN RACE PROVE THEIR TITLE BY CHOOSING THE WAY OF NON-VIOLENCE FOR VINDICATING THEIR POSITION ON EARTH. Every country is their home, including Palestine, not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish friend has sent me a book called The Jewish Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a record of what the Jews have done to enrich the world's literature, art, music, drama, science, medicine, agriculture, etc. Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as the outcast of the West, to be despised or patronized. HE CAN COMMAND THE ATTENTION AND RESPECT OF THE WORLD BY BEING THE CHOSEN CREATION OF GOD, INSTEAD OF SINKING TO THE BRUTE WHO IS FORSAKEN BY GOD. They can add to their many contributions the surpassing contribution of non-violent action.

Harijan, 26-11-1938.

[From M.K. Gandhi, My Non-Violence.]

worldwatcher  11/21/2010 09:47 PM Report

Sorry BENEZRAA,

You're a busy little Zionist propaganda bee (this time trying to subvert and corrupt no less than Mahatma Gandhi's philosophy for your and Zionism's *own* morally corrupt ends), but you're wrong -- again.

And, _of course_, no where in your over 700 word _concoction_ do you cite so much as a _single_ reference, and publication, and place, and date of what you purport to be Gandhi's philosophical treatise.

BENEZRAA  11/19/2010 05:07 PM Report

GANDHI ON JUDAISM AND ISRAEL

Many reputable persons cite Mahatma Gandhi as precedent to be anti-Israel.

Gandhi's viewpoint has been twisted and conflated in order to support both anti-Israel and anti-Jewish agendas.

Gandhi's anti-Zionism has been misunderstood and misused profoundly. In this commentary I shall explain Gandhi's anti-Zionism and in so doing I shall breathe some fresh air into the stuffy headroom of anti-Judaism.

For all his earned reputation for preaching, teaching, and practicing non-violence, Gandhi was never an absolutist about non-violence. In fact there are times at which he believed that violence was appropriate. As well he taught that absolute non-violent practice required the highest level of self-denial to the point of self-annihilation -- not merely in the spiritual sense of self-annihilation, but, in the physical sense of self-annihilation. He taught that in order to be a true practitioner of non-violence, one's heart, mind, and soul had to be completely and ushakabley integrated and devoted so that there would be no cognitive dissonance interfering with a natural, normal, and appropriate human instinct to violence, especially in matters of self-defense. Gandhi taught that an artificial imposition of non-violence could even be destructive, that for most persons most of the time, non-violence should not be practiced.

Gandhi's elevated view of Judaism is based on an ideal of non-violence having roots in Jainism. His level of ideal expectation allows Gandhi to set different standards for Jews and Israel in comparison to both the Nazis and the Arabs. He elevates Jews to a level of Holiness achieved by Jewish self-immolation, while not asking nor expecting any such similar behavior from Arabs (nor of Hindus!). Pushed to it's logical end, Jews have a unique obligation in the world to practice willing self-annihilation, having no right to self-defense. This view in Christian terms may be interpreted as a requirement that in order for Jews to be true Jews, they must all be Christ on the cross.

If the Good Lord had intended Jews all to be martyrs in order to be Jews, then there would be no Jews. There would be no Jewish life anywhere; and while there are Jew haters, who would revel in this, the revelry would last only until the next witch hunt, during which it would be claimed that there is still evil in the world, therefore there must still be some Jews around. The fact is that such a definition of Jews and Judaism is not the Good Lord's definition. The Lord is the Lord, people are people, and never the people shall presume to deity nor engage in idolatry.

With love and respect to Gandhi, at best his expectation of Jews is likely a psychological projection of his own failures to inspire his own people to a level of non-violent practice of which he could be proud as an Indian; at worst and more cynically, at the time of his nation building [after successful ejection of British rule], when he sought to forge an India unified of Muslims and Hindus [later to accept the gross religious separation into the essentially Muslim and Hindu nations of Pakistan and a much smaller India], it is possible he may not have given voice to more honest expectations of Jews and Israel for fear that supporting Jews and Israel would be additionally divisive to his own beloved India and that violence would rage between Muslims and Hindus far more, had he supported Israel.

As you no doubt already know, Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu, who believed that Gandhi's death was justified, as Gandhi was viewed for his non-violence by many Hindus as being pro-Muslim.

Gandhi was a great figure in history. He did not seek to be assassinated nor to be a martyr. Martyrdom found him. If martyrdom were the justification for existence, then paradoxically, there would have been no Gandhi, as there would have been no India. A deeper understanding of Gandhi has to take one to the conclusion that it was never his true intention, however strongly stated, to require India or Israel to engage in self-immolation to the point of extinction. It is one thing to say that according to Gandhi that self-immolation may be a manifestation in the world of the highest level of religious existence. By his own words, however, it is not an expectation that he ever had of the vast numbers of humanity.

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worldwatcher  11/15/2010 03:22 PM Report

Ancient Jews WEREN'T the FIRST or ONLY people in ancient Palestine and they only ruled PARTS of it on an historically TEMPORARY basis. And ancient Jews weren't the same as today's modern-day Jews, after 2,000 years of biological intermixing, widespread intermarriage and conversion in Europe, the Americas, Australia and elsewhere over many parts of the world. Modern-day, worldwide Jews no more have a moral right to an exclusivist claim on modern-day Palestine than would the NAZIS, claiming they were the native people, because they were generally Christian and Palestine is where Christians began. The Zionist ancient argument and exclusivist claim on modern-day Palestine, on the extremist religious fundamentalism basis that ancient Jews were there 2,000 years ago, would have no intellectual, legal or moral basis in history anywhere else in the world.

No people anywhere else in the world would accept such an absolutely ridiculous modern-day but ancient claim on their land. Such a modern-day claim on anyone else's modern-day land, anywhere else in the modern-day world, could, likewise, only be imposed by violent, brutal force and oppression, as Zionist Jews/Israelis have done in 20th & 21st century Palestine. Here we are in the *21st* century and we have a bunch of political and religious fundamentalist ZIONIST NUTBAGS talking about an ancient religious presence and "God's" ancient 2,000 or even 3,000 year-old, so-called, "promise" to them for someone else's modern-day land! If it didn't involve the very tragic and catastrophic, many decades-long, massive violence, dispossession, ethnic cleansing - AND _*JEWISH* FUNDAMENTALISM_ *RELIGIOUS* WAR - against the Palestinian people, the native people, we would just laugh!

worldwatcher  11/05/2010 05:06 PM Report

.

Others, also see, online:

"REFLECTIONS ON ZIONISM FROM A DISSIDENT JEW" - by Tim Wise

.

worldwatcher  11/05/2010 03:26 PM Report

Hey BENEZRAA..., you're trying THE *USUAL* ZIONIST TACTIC of:

MORE ZIONIST *PROPAGANDA* AND OUTRIGHT HISTORICAL *LIES*, FALLACIOIUS *DIVERSION*,

ENGAGING IN THE MONOLITHIC UNDIFFERENTIATED FACILE *RACIST* STEREOTYPING OF *1.5* BILLION MUSLIMS ON EARTH,

IGNORING THAT NO PEOPLE ON EARTH WOULD WILLINGLY GIVE UP THEIR NATIVE LAND TO FOREIGN ARMED MASS *INVADERS* SETTING UP A *FOREIGN* REGIME,

and _TRYING TO *CHANGE* THE SUBJECT_!

It won't work with me.

GO READ BELOW (or online if it gets expunged again by, as robdverity, 10/22 04:45PM, below, put it, Charlie's Zionist faction who didn't want others to see and *NOTE* the *FACTUAL* comparisons): "20 PARALLELS OF ZIONISM WITH NAZISM".

AND THERE ARE MANY **ANTI**-ZIONIST JEWS -- EVEN HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, FORMER ANTI-NAZI RESISTANCE FIGHTERS, FORMER VETERANS OF WWII, SURVIVING FAMILY MEMBERS, AND EVEN FORMER ISRAELIS -- THAT ZIONIST JEWS KEEP OFF THE MEDIA AND TV PROGRAMS LIKE THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW -- WHO BELIEVE THAT JUST AS OTHERS SHOULDN'T OPPRESS JEWS, JEWS SHOULDN'T OPPRESS OTHERS.

ANTI-ZIONISTS BELIEVE THAT *"NEVER AGAIN!" MEANS *NEVER AGAIN* FOR *ANYONE* -- *NOT* JUST FOR WHITE, EUROPEAN JEWS.

GANDHI CALLED ZIONISM "A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY"!

(Ref., online: "The Jews of Palestine, 1938", by M.K. Gandhi)

ALBERT EINSTEIN himself said that, "IT WOULD BE MY GREATEST SADNESS TO SEE JEWS DO TO PALESTINE'S ARABS *MUCH* OF WHAT NAZIS DID TO JEWS."

AFTER THE EUROPEAN SETTLER-COLONIAL OFFICIAL RACIST STATE IDEOLOGY OF APARTHEID WAS ABOLISHED IN SOUTH AFRICA, ISRAEL, WITH ITS OFFICIAL RACIST ZIONIST STATE IDEOLOGY, IS THE *LAST* SETTLER-COLONIAL STATE OF ITS KIND LEFT IN THE WORLD.

ZIONISM -- ALONG WITH APARTHEID, ALONG WITH "JIM CROW", ALONG WITH OTHER RACIST EUROPEAN COLONIAL IDEOLOGIES, ALONG WITH *NAZISM* -- WILL ALSO END UP IN THE DUST BIN OF HISTORY.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You, BENEZRAA, can *yak* and *yak* all you want. I told you MY MORAL _BOTTOM LINE_ and OUR FUNDAMENTAL DISAGREEMENT:

I _*DON'T*_ BELIEVE IN AN IDEOLOGICALLY RACIST, ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST -- OR, IN ISRAEL'S CASE, RELIGIO-ETHNIC *SUPREMACIST* -- e.g., *JEWISH-SUPREMACIST* -- STATE.

BUT YOU *DO*.

MY *ANTI-RACIST* _BOTTOM LINE_ IS THE _BOTTOM LINE_ OF ANY *MORAL* PERSON. AND *THAT* UNIVERSAL *ANTI-RACIST* MORALITY IS **NOT** SUSPENDED EVEN FOR ZIONIST JEWS.

PERIOD.

BENEZRAA  11/04/2010 11:39 PM Report

WW - THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF MORALITY IN YOUR BIAS OR IN YOUR CONTRADICTIONS; NOR IS THERE IMMORALITY IN MY PERSPECTIVE.

You claim you don't believe in "an ideologically racist, ethnic-supremacist, religio-ethnic state" and you claim that I "do"; but, I have made no such claim about Israel, nor have you acknowledged that the Muslim world of 1.3 billion souls is a world based on the very values you claim you do not believe in! Surely, if you were the "evolved, civilized" being that you claim to be, you would be objectively and loudly critical of the Muslim world, which sprawls across the three continents of Asia, Africa, and Europe.

You claim that the evolved, civilized, multi-ethnic, multi-cultural world is far advanced beyond "backward" Israel; is there any such equivalent in the Muslim world to Israel, where 20% of Israel's population are equal, voting, non-Jewish [mostly Muslim Arab] citizens?

You speak of an Israel "founded" on terrorism; this is simply untrue, except in the sense that, as a necessary survival response, Jews have engaged in terrorism. If the Arab majority had embraced Jews with love instead of terror, if the Arab majority had not threatened Jews with extinction, there would have been no need of any military response from Jews against Arabs and in fact there would likely have been a single state of Palestine shared by Jews and Arabs.

You deny the historical value of Jewish Palestinian identity. This is just plain ignorance on your part and on the part of others.

You scream about the bigotry of European Jews towards Palestinian and Negro Jews. So do I. But, you never asked about this internal aspect of Israeli society; nor by the way do you acknowledge that Israel is making strides towards blotting out that bigotry with each generation of native born Israelis. If you thought more deeply about the nature of this bigotry, you would see it as the reflection of the bigoted worlds of exile from which they came to Israel; you would also see that it is not limited to white Jewish bigotry against non-white Jews; there is enough bigotry to go around from the black Jews and the Arab Jews, just as in the USA, bigotry is not limited to white bigotry; there is more than enough hatred of whites by blacks, hispanics, and every other non-white demographic to the point that the USA will be lucky to escape a major race war.

You are too glib to associate Israeli policies with those of the Nazis. Take the time to truly study the history of Nazi Germany. Few Germans themselves are proud of it; yet, German xenophobia would not have taken such tangible form in Hitler's time, had the Versailles Treaty not enabled the Allies of WW1 Europe to bring Germany to it's knees; this is not an excuse for Germany, but, it should be a warning to the rest of us, what humanity is capable of, when push comes to shove and the thin skins of enlightenment and evolution are stripped away from the underbelly of raw civilization. It should be asked, "Why is the world so hell-bent on isolating Israel and backing Israel up against the Wall?" Could it be that the world seeks to justify it's own xenophobic tendencies and behaviors -- even justify the Nazis -- by proving that with enough external and internal pressure even Israel may be contorted and distorted to the point of abnormal behavior?

You seem to be convinced of a "Jewish-Supremacist" mentality as being characteristic of Jews and of Israel. I see Israel as an oasis of relative freedom and democracy in a region of the world dominated by either secular of religious dictatorships. I see Druse, Christians, Bahai, even Muslims all walking around in relative peace in Israel, where they are free to worship and not be persecuted; they have been, still are, and would be persecuted in Arab countries. You are blind to this. You speak of Israel as being an atavistic, anachronistic, retrograde nation; Israel is quite the opposite, a place where multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, multi-religious values have tangible reality and thrive in the persons of it's citizenry.

If Israel is "anachronistic", it is anachronistic in the sense that it is way ahead of it's neighbors, who in the majority truly do live in the past, who truly would turn back the clock; just look at Hamas and Hezbollah, hardly models of enlightened modernity.

You accuse Israel of decimating the Arab Christian population; this is false. It is persecution of Christians by Muslims that has decimated not only the Arab Christian population of Israel, but, also of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Indonesia....

You boast to having a moral, anti-racist point of view. You words tell a different story, whether you write them calmly or shout them. That story is that you are an anti-Jewish bigot and that your views are not founded upon any real knowledge of history past or present, only upon anti-Jewish screeds. Feeding yourself on such propaganda is guaranteed to fuel your temper with anger, your thoughts with lies, your heart with hatred, and your soul with bitterness. I do not envy you this. Go to the enlightened universities you speak of and scratch more than the surface of one or two agenda-spouting professors. You may find, that your current view of what you think enlightenment to be is far from a true, enlightened reality.

I quite agree with Einstein in his perception of what Israel must bring to the table in terms of honesty and morality. But, Israel is not the only party at the table; those who have made themselves into enemies of Israel must also bring honesty and morality to the table. If Israel is ever dishonest or immoral, it may be other than Israel seeing it's own reflection in the polished surface of the table; there are many other faces reflected there. I see your face there....

worldwatcher  11/03/2010 09:23 AM Report

Look, BENEZRAA, let me just BOTTOM-LINE *my* moral position vs. your immoral position:

I _*DON'T*_ BELIEVE IN AN IDEOLOGICALLY RACIST, ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST -- AND IN ISRAEL'S CASE RELIGIO-ETHNIC *SUPREMACIST* -- e.g., *JEWISH-SUPREMACIST* -- STATE -- BUT YOU *DO*.

THIS IS ESPECIALLY IN AN INCREASINGLY MULTI-ETHNIC / MULTICULTURAL WORLD, BUT ISREAL HAS TAKE A GIANT LEAP -- A 2,000 YEAR-OLD LEAD -- *BACKWARD* -- OR MAYBE JUST BACK TO THE NAZIS -- PARALLELING *ARYAN*-SUPREMACY -- TO AN ATAVISTIC, ANACHRONISTIC IDEOLOGY.

OR AS SOME PALESTINIANS POINT OUT ABOUT ZIONIST EUROPEAN JEWS: "THEY LEARNED FROM THE NAZIS!"

AND THE REST OF THE MORE CIVILIZED, MORE EVOLVED WORLD IS LIKE, '*BEEN* THERE, *DONE* THAT: AT LAST IT DIDN'T, ULTIMATELY, ESPECIALLY MORALLY, BUT ALSO POLITICALLY, WORK BEFORE: THE ANACHRONISTIC WORLD OF RACIAL/ETHNIC CONQUEST AND RACIAL/ETHNIC-SUPREMACY.

SUCH A SOCIETY HAS *NEVER* BROUGHT PEACE, LET ALONE JUSTICE.

ZIONISM WILL EVENTUALLY END UP IN *THE DUST BIN OF HISTORY* RIGHT ALONG WITH THE OTHER OFFICALLY AND IDEOLOGICALLY ETHNIC-SUPREMACISTS STATES

-- BE IT SLAVERY, NAZISM, APARTHEID, RACIAL COLONIALISM, AND, FINALLY, ZIONISM.

AND UNLESS THE JEWISH "GOD" IS A RACIST GOD, ZIONIST JEWS ARE, IN FACT, VIOLATING GOD'S LAW -- AND, AS *EINSTEIN* SAID (UNDER THAT BIBLICAL HYPOTHESIS), 'IF AFTER 2,000 YEARS OF WANDERING, JEWS HAVE NOT LEARNED HONESTY AND MORALITY TOWARD THOSE WITH WHOM THEY DEAL (IN PARTICULAR, THE PALESTINIANS), JEWS WOULD DESERVE EVERTHING [NEGATIVE] THAT WOULD BEFALL THEM.'

AND, AFTER APARTHEID SOUTH AFRICA, ISRAEL IS THE VERY *LAST* KIND OF, IDEOLOGICALLY AND OFFICIALLY, STATE OF ITS KIND LEFT IN THE WORLD TODAY.

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Now, the rest is just details, but let me take one or two or your most *IDIOTIC* claims. I'm only doing this because it's *fun* -- for a brief moment in time -- to make a *FOOL* outta your ilk -- in *public*!!

BENEZRAA: "1) By definition Jews are Palestinians,..."

Maybe IN SOME *WACKED-OUT* HARDCORE ZIONIST DEFINITION they are, but outside of, I suppose, Hebrew school and Hebrew University -- in any *accredited* secular institute of higher learning and any department of ethnic or geographical studies, and in such accredited scholarship -- even by Jews -- they aren't. And if you claimed that in any accredited Western institute of higher learning, they'd laugh you off as the _*Jewish* fundamentalist_ religious *NUTCASE* that you ARE! You're the *Jewish*, *male* version of Sarah Palin and Christine O'Donnell!! Even, among other Jews, the *Israeli* Jewish Professor Shlomo Sands says that what you said, BENEZRAA, *isn't* true, as well as numerous other Israeli/Jewish professors, scholars and authors.

European Jews are no more Palestinian, than they are African (because alll human life started in Africa). So, would European Jews have a moral claim to *Uganda* (one of the original options "given" for "Israel") because all of humanity's ancestors began in Africa?: of course not. And since Moses and the other "children of Israel" were born in AFRICA and was *BLACK* -- he certainly didn't look like some European Jew -- then *BLACK* people all over the world would have a *MUCH* greater -- if still not just -- relative claim to "Israel" than Jews from all over the world -- than, especially, white Jews (including those from Long Island to Los Angeles). I know that white Judaism, like white Christianity has made all the prophets white -- but they ain't so. There is a very small % of Palestinian Jews -- whom the European Zionists treated like sh*t -- just like the much larger % of Palestinian Christians, Muslims, and secular Palestinians. But, as a matter of fact, I know Ethiopian Jews who *hate* Israel (and *left* Israel) -- because they said that if you are black (a Black Jew) in Israel, you are *nothing*, as far as most white Israeli Jews are concerned!

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As for the rest of your recycled Zionist propaganda,...

_*NO AMOUNT*_ OF SUFFERING ENTITLES SOME PEOPLE TO GO TAKE THE LAND OF ANOTHER PEOPLE -- AND A *3RD* PARTY OTHER PEOPLE AT THAT -- WHO HAVE, AS A PEOPLE, DONE THE (*EUROPEAN*) INVADERS NO INJUSTICE: ..._*NO AMOUNT*_ OF SUFFERING.

IN FACT, I WONDER HOW EUROPEAN JEWS, WHO HAVE HAD THEIR HOMES AND LAND TAKEN AWAY SO OFTEN IN HISTORY -- ALTHOUGH THEY CERTAINLY WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES -- AND OFTEN NOT EVEN HISTORY'S *ONLY* OR *WORST* OPPRESSED -- COULD GO TAKE AWAY THE HOMES & LAND OF ANOTHER PEOPLE.

AS FORMER UN SECRETARY KOFI ANAN SAID, "ISRAEL CANNOT MORALLY CONTINUE TO USE THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST AS AN EXCUSE FOR THE OPPRESSION OF THE PALESTINIANS."

--*AS THOUGH* EUROPEAN JEWS WERE THE *ONLY* HOLOCAUST VICTIMS OF HITLER, OR THE ONLY PEOPLE TO SUFFER A HOLOCAUST.

ZIONIST JEWS ARE HISTORY'S GREATEST *HYPOCRITES*!! -- AND HISTORY'S MOST *NARCISSISTIC* HYPOCRITES!!:

BUT, YES, WE ALL KNOW THAT ONLY *JEWISH* SUFFERING *REALLY* MATTERS IN THE EYES OF ZIONIST EUROPEAN JEWS.

ESPECIALLY WHEN THE RELIGIOUS ANCESTORS OF EUROPEAN JEWS CERTAINLY *WEREN'T* THE *ONLY* OR EVEN *ORGINAL* INHABITANTS OF HISTORIC PALESTINE -- AND ONLY HAD POLITICAL CONTROL OF *PARTS* OF HISTORIC PALESTINE FOR A *TEMPORARY* PERIOD OF HISTORY!

YES, AND WE 'KNOW' THAT EUROPEAN JEWS ARE THE "ZZUPERRRIOR" PEOPLE, IN THEIR EYES, IN MODERN HISTORIC PALESTINE.

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BENEZRAA: "Nonetheless, Muslim terrorism and intolerance are the present obvious dominant source of terrorism in the Middle East"

IT'S FUNNY THAT YOU SAY THIS SINCE ISRAEL WAS *FOUNDED* ON TERRORISM (the terrorism of the Irguan and Stern *Jewish* terrorist organizations and the Hagannah) -- *ZIONISTS* & *ISRAEL* ARE THE SOURCE OF TERRORISM IN THE MIDDLE EAST: *ISRAELO-TERRORISM*.

AND, BTW, ZIONISTS AND ISRAEL COMMITED TERRORISM AGAINST AND DECIMATED *CHRISTIAN* PALESTINIANS -- MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN -- TOO!

MEANWHILE, SOME *25,000* JEWS STILL LIVE IN IRAN (AND A FEW *WENT BACK* FROM ISRAEL!) AND MANY JEWS (WHO NEVER LEFT) *STILL LIVE* IN OTHER MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES.

IN FACT, **ISRAEL** INVENTED THE LETTER BOMB, THE CAR BOMB, WAS THE FIRST TO HIJACK A PASSENGER PLANE FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES, WAS THE FIRST (disguised as Palestinians) TO BLOW UP A HIGH-RISE BUILDING WITH PLANTED BOMBS, AND BLEW UP TWIN HIGH-RISE TOWERS IN LEBANON.

AND ISRAELI ZIONISTS JEWS ASSASSINATED, in the same year Zionists self-declared "Israel" (the *European* Jewish colonial name for Palestine), in 1948, A UN CHIEF PEACE NEGOTIATOR (Sweden's Folke Bernadotte) WHO HAD, BEFORE, FOUNDED THE RED CROSS AND ONCE SAVED THOUSANDS OF JEWS DURING WWII!

BECAUSE, AS I SAID BEFORE, ZIONIST JEWS *DIDN'T* WANT *PEACE* IN PALESTINE: THEY WANTED *PALESTINE* ITSELF!! -- AND THEY USED VARIOUS MILITARY PRETEXTS TO GET MORE AND MORE OF IT (PALESTINE).

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BENEZRAA: "the Holy Land belongs first to the Lord and then to humanity only according to His permission to sojourn there"

Yo, BENEZRAA, THE *REST* OF THE EVOLVED, SOCIALLY ADVANCED WORLD HAS LONG *ABANDONED* THE THEORY OF "DIVINE RULE" -- THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE CAN "JUSTIFIABLY" RULE BECAUSE "*GOD* SAID SO!"

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BUT, NO POINT IN CONTINUING YOUR ZIONIST PROPAGANDA, BENEZRAA:

AS I SAID ABOVE, I JUST *DON'T* BELIEVE IN IDEOLOGICALLY RACIST, ETHNIC-SUPRMACISTS STATES -- LET ALONE *RELIGIO-ETHNIC-SUPREMACIST* STATES -- BUT YOU *DO* _WHEN IT COMES TO *ZIONIST JEWS* AND *ISRAEL*_.

AND THAT'S MY/THE *ANTI-RACIST* BOTTOM LINE OF ANY MORAL PERSON. AND THAT UNIVERSAL ANTI-RACIST MORALITY IS *NOT* SUSPENDED FOR ZIONIST JEWS. PERIOD.

BENEZRAA  11/02/2010 01:53 AM Report

WW - DO YOU NOT REALIZE THE EXTENT TO WHICH YOU OVERSIMPLIFY, EXAGERATE, AND DISTORT MIDDLE EAST HISTORY?

1) By definition Jews are Palestinians, a fact of history that is continually ignored in the media, in politics, and in educational environments.

2) Arabs of many religious persuasions living today in Israel enjoy more religious, political, educational, and economic freedom than in Muslim countries. Ironically, this freedom is yet inclusive of the 1.3 million Muslim population of Israel, who enjoy Israeli citizenship and who may vote.

3) Arabs suffer their greatest persecutions from other Arabs, most especially from such groups as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al-Quaeda, Fatah, etc. Negative foreign influence [from such as Iran's Muhamad Ahmadinijad] is not merely targeted at the Jews of Israel, it is targeted at Christians and at other non-Muslim Arabs such as Druse and Bahai. Not all terrorists are Muslim, nor are all Muslims terrorists. Nonetheless, Muslim terrorism and intolerance are the present obvious dominant source of terrorism in the Middle East and in Asia and Africa. The Christian populations of Lebanon and Iraq in particular have been decimated by Muslim terrorists. Sudan is splitting over civil war between the Muslim north and the Christian south, and the Arab Muslims of northeast Sudan persecute the Negro Muslims of Darfur. Less obvious is the stampede of "elephants in the rooms" of political, economic, and military backing of these conflicts from sources in China, Russia, Europe, Muslim nations, and even the USA.

4) The circumstances under which a tiny handful of Jews may have collaborated with the Nazis as early as 1933 were circumstances of duress, where a handful could see the 'writing on the wall.' By 1933 Hitler was Chancellor of Germany subsequent to his 1925 publication, while yet in prison, of MEIN KAMPF. By 1938 the terror of "Kristallnacht" had occurred. There is no comparison of scale or substance to the plight of Palestinian Arabs to the persecution and genocide of Jews in Islamic nations [one-million Jews in Islamic nations] during and after WW2, even as Europe destroyed it's Jewry in WW2, even as Russia persecuted it's Jews before, during, and after WW2. (This is not to trivialize the suffering of Palestinian Arabs, who are caught between the pressures of Islamo-terrorism and the survival struggle of today's Jewish remnant.)

5) There is more than enough pain and suffering to go around on both sides of any real or imagined borders in the Middle East or worldwide. Pain and suffering in the world does not begin nor end in the Middle East, nor is it the only terrible place of wars and terrors, nor is it the cause of world terror and suffering -- despite the megalomaniacal aspects of the three major western religions.

6) There is nothing wrong in drawing attention to the real plights of Palestinian Arabs. There is everything wrong in accepting the fallacy, that Jewish life in Palestine is predicated upon the denial of Arab life in Palestine. There is everything wrong in accepting the fallacy that Jews are foreigners to Palestine. There is everything wrong in ignoring the real plights of Jews, who are themselves Palestinians in exile by definition for millennia.

6) The Middle East and the world altogether would be better off, were Jews, Muslims, and Christians to remember that the Holy Land belongs first to the Lord and then to humanity only according to His permission to sojourn there by virtue of His requirements of permissible human behavior, and to apply that standard worldwide.

worldwatcher  10/29/2010 11:45 PM Report

Isn't it curious how we in the West call the *Palestinians* "EXTREMISTS(!!)" -- people who have been trying, for the past equivalent of three-quarters of a century, to *DEFEND* themselves, their families, their relatives, their friends, their neighbors, their communities, their villages, towns & cities, and their native land from *VIOLENT INVADERS* (i.e., *ZIONIST JEWS*, if anyone can't figure that out yet) from thousands of miles away, from entirely other continents -- but we *don't* call the *VIOLENT INVADERS* (*ZIONIST JEWS* with their *JEWISH SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY*) EXTREMISTS!

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Zionist Jews are yet the latest European religious minority sect in history, this time European *Jews*, instead of European Christians, going out to the non-European world, also toting the Bible and the *gun*, condemning discrimination and oppression back home (back in Europe), yet violently and *hypocritically* colonizing and oppressing others elsewhere.

worldwatcher  10/28/2010 07:07 PM Report

"IT WAS THE _*ZIONIST JEWISH LEADERS*_ WHO OFFERED TO SIDE AND FIGHT FOR **HITLER** -- AGAINST THE REST OF EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES AND THE REST OF THE WORLD(!!) -- RATHER THAN FIGHTING WITH THE ALLIES -- IF THE NAZIS LET THOSE ZIONIST JEWISH LEADERS HAVE "ISRAEL". SO, WHY WOULD THOSE *NUTCASE* ZIONIST LEADERS EVEN BELIEVE THAT THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE HONORED SUCH A NUTCASE AGREEMENT?"

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In all fairness..., maybe those Zionist Jewish leaders, Israel's later self-declarers, never heard about what happened to the Hitler-Stalin pact.

;-)

worldwatcher  10/28/2010 06:33 PM Report

BENEZRAA: PROPAGANDA ARGUMENT #3 [this is the usual one after "*God's* promise" and the "ancient Israel" argument]: "Jewish residency in Israel has been the only constant there for thousands of years!"

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RESPONSE: Jews have been in the U.S. too -- and, as in ancient Palestine, JEWS *WEREN'T* EITHER THE *FIRST* OR *ONLY* INHABITANTS THERE *EITHER* -- since the U.S. was a country -- but that **WOULDN'T** give Zionist Jews today the right to TAKE OVER the U.S., kick everyone else (who didn't happen to be born to a Jewish mother) out or to the side, purposely bring in Jews from all over the world, turn us into 2nd-class (or *worse*) citizens, take all the best land, destroy most non-Jewish farms & orchards, regularly bulldoze our homes anytime Jews needed more land, put the rest of us behind barbed wires and 26-46ft high concrete walls, set up huge concentration camps like Gaza for non-Jews, divide up the U.S. with military zones and checkpoints every 3-10 miles, construct Jews-only cities, towns and roads, hog up 90% of the best water (for even Jewish swimming pools & swim parks, besides bright green lawns), assassinate or expell our resistance fighters (armed *or* nonviolent), and turn the U.S. into an ideologically Zionist -- *JEWISH-SUPREMACIST* -- state!

It *WOULDN'T* even give Zionist Jews a right to take over *NEW YORK* and turn *it* into an ideologically Zionist, *JEWISH-SUPREMACIST* state!

YOU JUST HAVE TO BE **RACIST** TO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE THE *UTTERLY RIDICULOUS* ARGUMENTS & CLAIMS THAT ZIONIST JEWS PROMULGATE AND BELIEVE

--ESPECIALLY WHEN WE WOULDN'T ACCEPT SUCH *UTTERLY RIDICULOUS* ARGUMENTS AGAINST *OURSELVES*.

THE ONLY PEOPLE CONDUCTING TRULY *RELIGIOUS* FUNDAMENTALISM WARS OF *AGGRESSION* IN THE MODERN WORLD -- AND FOR THE PAST 75 YEARS (60+ YEARS AS THE STATE OF "ISRAEL")! -- ARE _**ZIONIST JEWS**_ !!

(THEY JUST HAPPEN TO BE WEARING *SUITS* AND WESTERN-STYLE MILITARY *UNIFORMS*, AND HAVE JET FIGHTERS, AND GET TO BE ON THE CHARLIE ROSE SHOW -- INSTEAD OF WEARING TURBINS AND ROBES, AND HAVE SIMPLE CRUDE ROCKETS!)

worldwatcher  10/28/2010 05:18 PM Report

Btw, most of the *people* of the world, think that the neocons and their supporters in the U.S., and in Tony Blair's, government who MANIPULATED our countries into going into *TWO* wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, over LIES and MISDIRECTION (none of "the 9-11 hijackers" even came from there, and Saddam had no WMD's or connection to "al-Qaeda") were/are *NUTCASES* too!! -- and, as though we not busy and militarily and economically stretched *enough*, want us to also start a *THIRD* war with Iran!!

Yes, BENEZRAA, there aren't just *NUTCASES* in Israeli Jewish society & government.

THEY DON'T CARE *HOW MUCH* OF OUR BLOOD, TREASURE, AND SAFETY THEY COST THE REST OF US.

But, that doesn't make Zionist Jewish *NUTCASES* right either.

worldwatcher  10/28/2010 04:53 PM Report

Yo BENEZRAA! You're right!! Israel and Zionists have no corner on the world's or history's market of religious and political *NUTCASES*! Most Muslims think that the Islamic fundamentalists are *NUTCASES*. And most Christians think that the Christian fundamentalists are *NUTCASES*. It's just that the religious *NUTCASES* -- JEWISH, MUSLIM or CHRISTIAN -- get all the *media* attention.

Can you imagine what would happen in this country if the Tea Party *NUTCASES* actually took over control of *our* land and government!?: even Jews would have to swear allegiance to a fundamentalist Christian god; "Creationism" would mandatorily take over science in our educational system; women wouldn't even be able to get birth control pills, let alone not be able to get abortions (it'd be like The Handmaid's Tale); it'd be a 'Jim Crow' society again for minorities, and no minority or women's history classes would be allowed to be taught in schools; all social programs would be outlawed as just needlessly helping the weak anyway; abstract art would be outlawed as degenerate and too socially dangerous; all of our television shows would look like "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best"; etc.

If what you're saying, BENEZRAA, is that *JEWISH* FUNDAMENTALISTS (religious &/or political) aren't the *only* RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL **NUTCASES** in the world -- YOU'RE / THEY'RE ONLY DANGEROUS -- LIKE THE *ORIGINAL* NAZIS -- WHEN THEY HAVE GUNS(!) -- then you're exactly right!!:

Like, "HEY GUYS (YOU PALESTINIANS)!!...: *'GOD'* PROMISED US THIS LAND, AND AFTER 2,000 YEARS -- *NOT* THAT OUR *RELIGIOUS* ANCESTORS WERE EVER EVEN THE *ORIGINAL* INHABITANTS EVEN DURING BIBLICAL TIMES -- WE'VE 'COME BACK' FROM ACROSS THE SEAS AND OCEANS, FROM ENTIRELY OTHER CONTINENTS, FOR WHAT'S 'OURS'!!"

As I said before, AN *UTTERLY RIDICULOUS* ARGUMENT THAT IS *LITERALLY* WORSE THAN *MEDIEVAL*!!

AND SPEAKING OF GUNS -- THAT'S WHY ANTI-ZIONIST BRITISH JEW AND NOBEL LAUREATE (IN LITERATURE) *HAROLD PINTER* CALLED ZIONIST JEWS -- ESPECIALLY ISRAEL'S POLITICAL LEADERS:

*** "A BUNCH O' *THUGGGS*!!" ***

If we think that the *NUTCASE* religious and political arguments and claims that Zionist Jews used to take over historic Palestine and oppress another people was *NUTTY* -- ONLY SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE ZIONISTS SOUGHT AND RECEIVED THE HELP OF WESTERN IMPERIALISTS -- we could only imagine what the Tea Party would come up with if they took over *this* country.

AND EVEN NUTTY *KARL ROVE* CALLS THE TEA PARTY **REALLLY** NUTTY -- THEN YOU **KNOW** THEY'RE NUTTY -- AND **REALLY** DANGEROUS.

--JUST LIKE MANY ZIONIST JEWS THINK THAT THE *JEWISH*, **REALLLY** FUNDAMENTALIST, SETTLERS IN PLACES LIKE *HEBRON*, AND IN THE ISRAELI *PARLIAMENT*, ARE **REALLY** NUTTY. THIS, EVEN COMPARED TO *REGULAR* ZIONIST JEWS.

JUST LIKE RICHARD GOLDSTONE, WHO WROTE "THE GOLDSTONE REPORT" (for the UN investigation), CONDEMNING ISRAEL FOR MASSIVE *WAR CRIMES* IN GAZA, IS BOTH A *JEW* AND A *ZIONIST* (don't ask me why, since Zionism is just Israeli apartheid), THINKS THAT NETANYAHU AND ALL THE OTHER *REAL NUTCASES* IN ISRAEL HAVE GONE TOO FAR!

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AS FOR *THIS* OLD CHESTNUT OF CONTINUALLY DEBUNKED BUT RECYCLE ZIONIST PROPAGANDA:

"The Grand Mufti, instead of siding with Hitler and seeking to murder the remnant of Jews, could have practiced compassion and welcomed Jews into Palestine."

(1): I know that you racists Jews (and others) think that all Arabs are the same, but "the Mufti" WASN'T & ISN'T *ALL* ARABS -- NOT EVEN *ALL* PALESTINIANS.

(Which, by the way, you RACIST ISRAELI JEWS even refuse to *call* the Palestinians "Palestinians" because that would make it too damn verbally obvious that they are the native people of *PALESTINE*.)

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(2): the Mufti was not a political ruler and he certainly had no Arab armies.

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(3): IT WAS THE *ZIONIST JEWISH LEADERS* WHO OFFERED TO SIDE AND FIGHT FOR **HITLER** -- RATHER THAN FIGHTING WITH THE ALLIES -- AGAINST THE REST OF EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES AND THE REST OF THE WORLD(!!) -- IF THE NAZIS LET THOSE ZIONIST JEWISH LEADERS HAVE "ISRAEL" (the European Zionist Jewish colonial name for Palestine) IN PALESTINE.

REF, the book: "51 DOCUMENTS: ZIONIST COLLABORATION WITH THE NAZIS", by LENNI BRENNER -- AN ADAMANTLY ANTI-ZIONIST JEW, currently living in Manhattan, and the world's foremost authority on the history of Zionism and Israel. Every book he's ever written has been a *landmark* book in the scholarly world on these issues.

BTW, LENNI BRENNER AND OTHER ANTI-ZIONIST JEWISH SCHOLARS HAVE ALWAYS POINTED OUT (not that you'd hear this in the mainstream American media) THAT IF THE CHOICE WAS BETWEEN ACTUALLY *SAVING* JEWS DURING WWII, AND IN THE YEARS JUST AFTER, OR GETTING "ISRAEL", THE EARLY ZIONIST LEADERS ALWAYS CHOSE *ISRAEL* -- AND IN AN HISTORICALLY FAMOUS STATEMENT, ISRAEL'S FIRST PRIME MINISTER, DAVID BEN GURION, ACTUALLY SAID SO!!

SO THERE!!...

*BUT*, YOU CAN BET THAT CHARLIE ROSE WILL **NEVER** HAVE *LENNI BRENNER* ON CHARLIE'S SHOW -- AS ONLY *ZIONIST* JEWS ARE PERMITTED TO BE ON TV IN *THIS* COUNTRY'S MEDIA AND THE REST OF THE WESTERN MEDIA.

AND, BTW, BUT FOR THE BRITISH -- WHO THE ZIONISTS TURNED AGAINST AFTER WWII -- AND THE ARABS, THE NAZIS NEARLY OVERRAN PALESTINE, ANYWAY, DURING WWII. SO, WHY WOULD THOSE *NUTCASE* ZIONIST LEADERS EVEN BELIEVE THAT THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE HONORED SUCH A NUTCASE AGREEMENT?

LET ALONE THAT ISRAEL'S ZIONIST JEWISH FOUNDERS OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T CARE IF THE REST OF US WERE PUT IN EITHER DEATH CAMPS OR UNDER NAZI RULE! ... AND WE KNOW WHAT THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE DONE TO PEOPLE OF COLOR -- THOSE "INFERIORS" -- IN THE WORLD: SLAVE LABOR &/OR EXTERMINATION.

SO, ISRAEL'S ZIONIST JEWISH FOUNDERS DIDN'T CARE IF *OTHER* PEOPLE WERE EXTERMINATED.

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(4): WHEN THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE FACED AND SUFFERED GENOCIDE AT THE HANDS OF A TURKISH REGIME, also in the 20th century (during WWI), MANY ARMENIANS ALSO FLED TO PALESTINE

-- BUT THE *ARMENIANS* DIDN'T TRY TO *TAKE OVER* THE PLACE AND OPPRESS THE NATIVE PEOPLE!! -- AND SO THE ARMENIANS WERE WELCOMED! -- AND SINCE THEN THERE'S EVEN BEEN "THE ARMENIAN QUARTER" IN JERUSALEM!

Isn't that interesting how people under religious threat often flee to the *Arab* world!? -- because THE ARAB WORLD -- from Iran (where there are still Jews living there today!), even today -- to North Africa, courageously during the Nazi era -- to, before Zionism, the Middle East -- to, way back then, Arab Spain -- HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN MUCH MORE TOLERANT OF OTHER RELIGIONS. After all, it was other *Europeans* -- the *Romans* -- who kicked ancient Jews out of Palestine -- *not* the Arabs!

Yet, all the 'thanks' Arabs get are THE LIKES OF YOU ZIONISTS -- BENEZRAA -- prattling on and on with your constantly debunked, but still also constantly recycled ZIONIST PROPAGANDA -- and you Zionists can only get away with it because only you are permitted on TV in the American/Western media.

As I said before, THE NAZIS WOULD HAVE BEEN IN *AWE*!!: THEY *NEVER* HAD ANY SUCH KIND OF MAINSTREAM MEDIA *MONOPOLY* AND 'SMOOTH' PUBLIC RELATIONS OPERATIONS -- IN *EVERY* ASPECT OF OUR TV, CABLE, SATELLITE AND RADIO NEWS, DOCUMENTARIES, ENTERTAINMENT, CINEMA, STAGE, ETC., IN THE WEST!

BUT, TODAY, THE INTERNET IS THE ONLY THING THAT ZIONISTS DON'T HAVE ALL SEWN UP -- OH, BUT YOU CAN BET THAT THEY *TRY*!!: "*CHARLIE*, COME DELETE THAT COMMENT POST, BECAUSE IT'S 'ANTI-SEMITIC'!..."

So, you see, BENEZRAA, when you Zionists come here to these public online comment sites, you run the great risk that your word is going to be countered by at least a few actually INFORMED and MORAL (and thus ANTI-RACIST) people -- and not your usual conservative (like Martin Indyk, or Dennis Ross, or ultra-right-wingers like Netanyahu himself) *or* liberal, "I feel your [Palestinian] pain", Zionists (like David Grossman) propagandists -- but both categories want historic Palestine (the conservatives want 100%, while the liberals want 85-90%) -- like on the Charlie Rose Show.

------

(5): BUT PART OF THE *MYSTERY* IS HOW EVEN SUPPOSEDLY "INTELLIGENT" AND "CULUTRED" JEWS, LIKE AUTHOR DAVID GROSSMAN, GET SWEPTED AND CAUGHT UP IN HISTORY'S *LATEST* RACIST NATIONALIST IDEOLOGY (ZIONISM)

--EXCEPT THAT SUPPOSEDLY "INTELLIGENT" AND "CULTURED" GERMANS GOT SWEPT UP INTO NAZISM

--AND, LET'S FACE IT, JUST AS WITH ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS, MANY ANTI-NAZI GERMANS GOT **THREATENED** WITH THEIR *LIVES* OR -- TODAY WITH ANTI-ZIONIST JEWS -- THEIR *LIVELIHOOD*!

BUT, TODAY, JEWS WHO DON'T SPEAK OUT AGAINST RACIST ZIONISM *NEVER FACE/D* WHAT GERMANS WHO DIDN'T SPEAK OUT AGAINST RACIST NAZISM DURING THE NAZI ERA:

IN THE NAZI ERA YOU COULD GET *MURDERED* OR SENT TO A *DEATH CAMP* -- THIS IS *NOT* TRUE WITH JEWS TODAY.

SO, WHERE ARE ALL THE ANTI-RACIST *JEWISH* VOICES WHEN IT COMES TO *THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE* (& THE LEBANESE) WHEN ISRAEL/ZIONISM IS SLAUGHTERING THEM?

BENEZRAA  10/27/2010 10:52 PM Report

WORLDWATCHER...

Israel has no corner on the markets of religious and existential justification. That other peoples than the people of Israel claim such justification does not nullify Israel's justification. Israel, however, does not promote an ethos of forced conversion versus annihilation of other peoples. This cannot be said of Islam nor of Catholicism.

For a brief moment in time in the wake of the Holocaust, the Vatican eased it's own persecution of Jews and took some responsibility for it's history of persecution of Jews. But, now the Council of Bishops wants to turn back the clock, finding common ground with Islam by defaming Israel. Ironically, both Islam and Catholicism have warred with each other (JIHAD versus CRUSADE) across the Afro-Eur-Asian continents. The very term JIHAD may be translated as CRUSADE. Israel is always caught in the middle.

Jewish residency in Israel has existed throughout history, waxing and waning at the crossroads of endless wars of empire -- Egyptians, Hitties, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, Brits.... Jewish residency in Israel has been the only constant there for thousands of years! Perhaps, if the world were to allow Israel it's unique existence, there would be peace between the three continents (no crossroads, no cross-continental wars)!

Somewhere in your sense of history, the imperial success of Islam may not be criticized, yet the present success of Israel may not be justified. Somewhere in your sense of history, the persecutions of at least a million Jews in Muslim lands in the past century are either justifiable, trivial, or ignorable. Somewhere in your sense of history, Jews may be misunderstood to be foreigners to Israel, rather than periodic exiles from Israel. Somewhere in your sense of history, you favor Jihadists, who already scuttled the bud of peace between Jews and Arabs in Israel contemporary to WW1, that would have led to peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs. Somewhere in your sense of history, you have no compassion for the tiny handful of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, who were "lucky" to have the "choice" between the concentration camps of Nazi Germany or a war of survival with Hitler's Allies in Palestine.

There are those, who say that Islam is a religion of compassion; where was the compassion of Islam among Hitler's Allies in Palestine, led by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem? The faith of Israel and the faith of Islam both claim spiritual heritage from Abraham, who is noted for the warmth and generosity of his hospitality (in addition to his recognition of monotheism). I do see Abraham's warmth and hospitality in author David Grossman, even as I see that warmth and hospitality in besieged Israel, a State which even now has as many Muslim citizens as the number of Jews persecuted in Muslim lands in the past century. I see no such equivalent "hospitality" among the Arabs, nor among the Muslim population worldwide. This is not unique in the world. That said, a common apathy in the world does not justify apathy in Islam, let alone alliance of Islam with Hitlerism.

The Grand Mufti, instead of siding with Hitler and seeking to murder the remnant of Jews, could have practiced compassion and welcomed Jews into Palestine. The likely result would have been a single State, the Democratic State of Palestine. Now it is too late for that option.

WORLDWATCHER, may you find peace in your soul and may you find some compassion for Israel's humanitarian needs, which are for more grievous than you show acknowledge. May you do so for the sake of all the peoples of Palestine, which include Jews.

worldwatcher  10/27/2010 09:51 AM Report

RE worldwatcher (comment) 10/27/2010 09:39 AM:

Today the colloquial and immediate response by a person, to such a foreign person, to such a religious argument, making such a nationalist land claim of "return" and take-over, would be, "YOU MUST BE ON **CRACK**!!!"

worldwatcher  10/27/2010 09:39 AM Report

Syntax clarification:

"NO PEOPLE/COUNTRY (*REGARDLESS* OF THEIR RELIGION) IN THE *WORLD* -- LEAST OF ALL IN THE UNITED STATES -- WOULD WILLINGLY ACCEPT SUCH A [BIBLICAL] PREMISE, [BIBLICAL] ARGUMENT AND [RELIGIOUS / ZIONIST] CLAIM FOR SUCH A VIOLENT FOREIGN TAKE-OVER, DISPOSSESSION, AND COLONIZATION [OF THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN LAND]!"

worldwatcher  10/27/2010 09:23 AM Report

"...has decreed that Israel has no Biblical justification for existence."

Well ***DDUHH-UHHH***...!

*NO* modern *foreign* population has a right to go invade and VIOLENTLY take over another people's native land, and VIOLENTLY dispossess the native inhabitants, purportedly "justified" because the *Bible* said that the foreign invaders' *religious ancestors* once had *temporary* political control of *parts* of that land *2,000 years ago*!! -- and that, supposedly, *"GOD"* promised the foreign invaders the land *3,000-5,000 years ago*!! -- and that, thus, the foreign invaders have "returned" for what's "theirs"!

THIS IS, INDEED, AN ARGUMENT AND FOREIGN LAND CLAIM SO *UTTERLY RIDICULOUS* THAT IT'S LITERALLY *WORSE* THAN MEDIEVAL!!

IT'S A *JEWISH* FUNDAMENTALISM ARGUMENT.

NO PEOPLE/COUNTRY (*REGARDLESS* OF THEIR RELIGION) IN THE *WORLD* -- LEAST OF ALL IN THE UNITED STATES -- WOULD WILLINGLY ACCEPT SUCH A PREMISE, ARGUMENT AND CLAIM FOR SUCH A VIOLENT FOREIGN TAKE-OVER, DISPOSSESSION, AND COLONIZATION!

IT'S A *RIDICULOUS* CLAIM THAT CAN /COULD ONLY BE PERPETRATED AT THE BARREL OF A GUN.

SAID ONE JEWISH, EARLY, WOULD-BE, ZIONIST SURVEYOR OF HISTORIC PALESTINE:

"I SAW THE 'BRIDE', SHE IS BEAUTIFUL! BUT, ALAS, SHE BELONGS TO ANOTHER MAN!"

*NO AMOUNT* OF SUFFERING -- NOT EVEN THE SUFFERING OF EASTERN EUROPEAN JEWS WHO HAVE HAD THEIR HOMES VIOLENTLY TAKEN SO OFTEN IN HISTORY -- NOT THAT EUROPEAN JEWS WERE THE ONLY ONES -- MORALLY JUSTIFIES EVEN ANY JEWS THEMSELVES VIOLENTLY -- AND WITH THE GROSSEST HYPOCRISY -- TAKING THE HOMES AND LAND OF ANOTHER PEOPLE.

If Grossman's son wasn't fighting in support of a repugnant racist ideology -- political/nationalist Zionism -- and who was killed *not* even in Israel or the "Occupied Territories", but in *LEBANON* -- where Israel was trying to take over and even annex (which they still have) part of yet still *another* foreign country (as Israel has with Syria!) -- then his son would still be alive today. Grossman's son is, unfortunately, not the only young person to die over a factual &/or ideological *LIE* where pretextual wars of aggression are concerned. So, since then, the grieving Grossman doesn't want to 'see' his then 20 year-old son die for nothing -- after all, Grossman has *another* son, *and* daughter, that he could lose in this conflict -- and Grossman has since realized that Israel can't literally kick ALLL the Palestinians out of historic Palestine, as dearly much as many *hardcore* racist Israeli Jews *openly* want to do so. So, now Grossman is looking for something of a resolution, rather than an indefinite continuation of the internal Israel-Palestinian conflict, and nothing but regular wars or the precipice of wars, and more Palestinian, so-called, "terrorism" or successive Intifada, and the Western world's people's steadily growing moral condemnation of Israel and Israeli Jews, in Israel's future. But, Grossman is trying to find an inherently immoral resolution -- to KEEP *85-90%* of historic Palestine, taken from still over *50%* the non-Jewish population (the Palestinian people), instead of Israel taking it ALL -- to an inherently immoral ideology (Zionism) -- except hardcore racist Israeli/Zionist Jews (like BENEZRAA) aren't even going to let Grossman do *that*!

Political ZIONISM HAS STOLEN THE *SOUL* OF JUDAISM AND EVEN OF *MILLIONS* OF JEWS, MANY -- THOUGH, BY NO MEANS, NOT ALL -- PREVIOUSLY INNOCENT / NAIVE, AND THEN TURNED INTO VISCERAL RACISTS.

As one anti-racist and thus AN ANTI-ZIONIST FRENCH JEW, who fought in the anti-Nazi resistance in WWII, and who, later after the war, innocently and naively moved to Israel in the early 1950's, and said that he then saw how brutally and immorally the Palestinian people were being treated by the Zionists, and he later said,

"THE *BEST* THING THAT ANY MORAL JEW IN ISRAEL CAN DO IS *LEAVE* IT!:

THAT THE STATE OF ISRAEL IS INHERENTLY RACIST -- AND THAT THE VERY STATE OF ISRAEL *ITSELF* IS A GROSS AND LARGE-SCALE ACT OF TERRORISM!"

BENEZRAA  10/26/2010 09:36 PM Report

DEAR DAVID GROSSMAN (cont'd),

Please don't misunderstand my meaning. You are a beautiful Jewish soul inspired by love and forgiveness even having lost your son in war. The world at large doesn't see Israel that way. Only in these past few days the Vatican's Council of Bishops has decreed that Israel has no Biblical justification for existence. Wake up and smell the coffee!

BENEZRAA  10/26/2010 09:28 PM Report

DEAR DAVID GROSSMAN,

If you have read these Comments, you may at least have a headache or even the sensation that you have stuck your head up out of the trenches and waving a white flag, only to be met by a torrent of bullets. If from this you learn that it is time to duck your head so as not to get your head blown off (that's a metaphor), then you will have learned something. If you have learned it well, then you may have the theme for your next book, "I STUCK MY HEAD UP INTO A TORRENT OF BULLETS, AND I DON'T RECOMMEND IT AS A POLICY FOR THE STATE OF ISRAEL."

worldwatcher  10/23/2010 12:47 PM Report

More on those crazy, racist, *JEWISH* FUNDAMENTALISTS (religious *and* political)!

Thanks for the notice -- I hadn't seen the video before -- robdverity, re:

"60 Minutes", "Controversy in Jerusalem: the City of David?", October 17, 2010 -- "Lesley Stahl Reports on a Controversial Archeological Dig Site."

At the "60 Minutes" website page there is also a follow-up (although the date given is before the above program aired?) video/report): "Ask "60 Minutes": City of David", October 4, 2010. (Also at "60 Minutes" YouTube channel) "Lesley Stahl answers your questions about her report on Jerusalem. We will post a response video to some of your questions a few days after the broadcast."

(Btw, there is also *NO* SCIENTIFIC AND LEGITIMATE ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE -- which every Jew who lives in or visits Israel, from anywhere in the world, let alone the rest of us on PBS/Western TV, is indoctrinated in as further WAR PROPAGANDA to "justify" the state of Israel and to implicitly use against the Palestinian people -- that the Jewish *religious* story of the supposed mass suicide of Jews at Masada *EVER* HAPPENED!!)

See, in particular, below, "20 Parallels of Zionism with Nazism":

3) both attempting to revive some supposedly "glorious ancient kingdom" -- a "glorious ancient Teutonic kingdom" for the German NAZIs; a "glorious ancient Judaic kingdom" for the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonistS.

6) both based on creating a founding MYTHOLOGY.

8) both based on eliminating some other unwanted and supposedly inferior races...

13) both sought to erase existing countries -- like the German NAZIs wanting to wipe Poland off the map and parts of other countries; the Jewish NAtionialist ZIonistS wanting to wipe Palestine off the map and parts of other countries.

14) BOTH USED PSEUDO-ARCHEOLOGY TO CLAIM THAT IT HAD EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO THE LAND.

[caps added for emphasis]

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NOTICE how the RACIST *JEWISH* FUNDAMENTALIST Mayor of Jerusalem equates everything that is "flourishing, clean, and beautiful" with only JEWS in Jerusalem/Palestine! -- whereas he equates everything as illegitimate, dirty and ugly with the Palestinians, as "slums"!

NOTE THIS!: Colonialism *always* tries to remove/separate the indigenous people from their land -- EVEN CULTURALLY!

The NAZI's would be in *AWE* at what the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonists can get away with!

________________________________________________________________________

[NOTE!!: ISRAEL IS A *POLITICAL* ENTITY -- AND *ZIONISM* IS A *POLITICAL* IDEOLOGY -- **NOT** THE EQUIVALENT OF JUDAISM OR ALL JEWS:

THEREFORE *ANY* POLITICALLY ENTITY / IDEOLOGY IS OPEN TO -- ESPECIALLY, *INCISIVE* -- INTELLECTUAL AND HISTORICAL ANALYSIS AND MORAL COMPARISONS.

ONLY PEOPLE (like davidmu and other Zonists) WHO ARE *AFRAID* OF SUCH INCISIVE ANALYSIS -- AND OF, ESPECIALLY, COMPARISONS TO *OTHER* RACIST IDEOLOGIES / REGIMES -- AND DON'T WANT YOU TO *SEE* SUCH TRAGIC AND IRONIC COMPARISONS -- GO RUN AND COMPLAIN AND CALL FOR CENSORSHIP!]

worldwatcher  10/23/2010 12:41 PM Report

[From UK Indymedia and other online Web sources]

20 Parallels of Zionism with Nazism:

1) both based on supposed purity of blood.

2) both based on supposedly reuniting some religioethnic diaspora under one expansive state.

3) both attempting to revive some supposedly "glorious ancient kingdom" -- a "glorious ancient Teutonic kingdom" for the German NAZIs; a "glorious ancient Judaic kingdom" for the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonistS.

4) both established a state that was culturally, legally, economically and religiously based to exclusively benefit one ethnic/racial group.

5) both based on violent racist exclusion and a highly intricate complex of racial exclusion laws (like Israel's racial 'Nuremberg laws').

6) both based on creating a founding mythology -- like, for Zionist Jews, "a land without a people"

7) both invented their own race: Aryans, by the German NAZIs; Jews, constructed as a unique/genetic RACE, by the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonistS.

8) both based on eliminating some other unwanted and supposedly inferior races -- ethnic cleansing -- and, in the case of NAtionalist ZIonism, removing those unwanted people who supposedly didn't exist.

9) both engaged in collective punishment and widespread torture (even inventing new sadistic torture methods).

10) both engaged in the mass imprisonment -- without trials -- of unwanted populations/races.

11) both enclosed unwanted races in walled-in ghettos and concentration camps -- only the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonistS made the walls many times higher and the concentration camps many times larger (like Gaza, in effect the world's largest open-air prison/concentration camp).

12) both tried out new weapons on civilian populations (and Israel has engaged in the internationally illegal use of anti-personal weapons of mass destruction, like the widespread use of cluster bombs, on civilian populations).

13) both sought to erase existing countries -- like the German NAZIs wanting to wipe Poland off the map and parts of other countries; the Jewish NAtionialist ZIonistS wanting to wipe Palestine off the map and parts of other countries.

14) both used pseudo-archeology to claim that it had exclusive right to the land.

15) the German NAZIs obsessed about "too many Jews" in Germany; the Jewish NAtionalist ZIonists/Israel obsesses about "too many Palestinians" and the re-emergence of a Palestinian majority in historic Palestine (once an overhwhelmingly Arab land).

16) both were violently and militarily expansionist.

17) both engaged in blitzkrieg fighter aircraft and tank warfare against civilian populations and civilian targets.

18) NAtionalist ZIonist Israeli Jews even studied the original NAZI methods for urban warfare and clearing Palestinians out of their ghettos. Exclaimed one ISRAELI commander, "LET'S BE JUDEO-NAZIS!" (**Reference**!: www.seruv.org.il -- the website for Israeli Refuniks in the "Occupied Territories"; see "Letter to American Jews"; "The Nazification of Israel" -- both online.)

19) both claimed to be based on "God's will".

20) and, finally (for Israel's 'final solution'), most recently (Feb 29, 2008), Israeli deputy defence minister threatens a "holocaust" for the Palestinians.

worldwatcher  10/23/2010 12:28 PM Report

Will try, robdverity (10/22/2010 04:45 PM). Thanks.

robdverity  10/22/2010 04:45 PM Report

worldwatcher - your comment re 60 Minutes was expunged by Charlie's Zionist faction. Interesting. As an experiment - should you see this - recreate and repost it to test the democracy OR NOT of this forum. Bloomberg das fist? Must have been too cogent, on point for them.

worldwatcher  10/20/2010 05:18 PM Report

NOTE!!: ISRAEL IS A *POLITICAL* ENTITY -- AND *ZIONISM* IS A *POLITICAL* IDEOLOGY -- **NOT** THE EQUIVALENT OF JUDAISM OR ALL JEWS:

THEREFORE *ANY* POLITICALLY ENTITY / IDEOLOGY IS OPEN TO -- ESPECIALLY, *INCISIVE* -- INTELLECTUAL AND HISTORICAL ANALYSIS AND MORAL COMPARISONS.

ONLY PEOPLE (like davidmu and other Zonists) WHO ARE *AFRAID* OF SUCH INCISIVE ANALYSIS -- AND OF, ESPECIALLY, COMPARISONS TO *OTHER* RACIST IDEOLOGIES / REGIMES -- GO RUN AND COMPLAIN AND CALL FOR CENSORSHIP!

robdverity  10/18/2010 07:09 PM Report

Thanks for carrying water here world watcher. 60 Mins was particularly repugnant 10/17.

worldwatcher  10/18/2010 11:58 AM Report

davidmu (10/18/2010 07:45 AM): "excuse me for taking seriously threats by Ahmedinejad and he's partners in Gazza on wanting to wipe out Israel."

You mean, excuse you for your taking seriously your own and MORE ZIONIST *PROPAGANDA* duly carried by the mainstream Western, especially U.S., media?

Ahmadinejad said that, quote, "THE ZIONIST ENTITY/REGIME [always purposely mistranslated, for obvious reasons, by the mainstream U.S./Western media as, "the Jews" or "Israel"] in Palestine should and will pass from the earth" -- which (whether any person agrees or not with everything that Ahmadinejad says, anymore than with everything other heads of state say) any moral person in the world should and would agree with that.

Israel is AN ARTIFICIAL, FOREIGN, *EUROPEAN* JEWISH CREATED, COLONIAL, POLITICAL ENTITY -- younger than many adult Palestinians' parents! As such, THE ZIONIST ENTITY/REGIME/STATE in Palestine -- who's EUROPEAN COLONIAL NAME IS "ISRAEL" -- has no more of an inherent moral right to exist than, for example, "French Indochina" (today Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia), or "British East Africa" (today, Kenya), or the British "Gold Coast" (today, Ghana), or Dutch "Formosa" (today, Taiwan), or any other foreign European political colonial entity in the non-European world!

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And davidmu, my question: if this were true, "Palestinian kids being brain washed to see Jews as animals" -- do you think that Palestinian kids are being "brain washed" more by Palestinian parents *OR* by the *ISRAELI ZIONIST EUROPEAN JEWS themsevles* who went to Palestine to steal those kids' Palestinian parents' land, and shoot and bomb those kids and their families?

AS I SAID BEFORE, ZIONIST JEWS (whether conservative or so-called "liberal") _DON'T EVEN KNOW_ HOW *NOT* TO THINK RACISTLY -- THEY EVEN THINK THAT PALESTINIAN PARENTS WOULD *NEED* TO TEACH PALESTINIAN KIDS TO HATE ISRAEL AND TO SEE ISRAELI ZIONIST JEWS AS "ANIMALS".

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey davidmu, my final question to you!: Do Israeli Jews teach their kids that there should be "*ABSOLUTELY EQUAL RIGHTS* FOR ALL PEOPLE *REGARDLESS* OF WHO (BY HAPPENSTANCE OF BIRTH) THEIR MOTHER WAS/IS -- I.E., REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, "RACE", OR ETHNICITY"?

worldwatcher  10/18/2010 10:54 AM Report

Author David Grossman langourously waxed on and on about "understanding" and "peace", but, of course for such "liberal" Israeli Jews, he neither specified nor offered not so much as a single concrete idea or suggestion as to how to meaningfully bring that about: he waxed on in the most vague, abstract words -- ironic, for a writer who claims to think about and select words so painstakingly.

Here's a concrete and specific idea, David...: how about abolishing _the repugnant racist ideology of political Zionism_ (like the repugnant racist ideology of South African Apartheid or, before that, American Jim Crow or, before that, Nazism, or any other repugnant racist ideology that was abolished) into the trash bin of history and establish A SECULAR DEMOCRATIC STATE WITH *ABSOLUTELY EQUAL RIGHTS* FOR ALL PEOPLE *REGARDLESS* OF WHO (BY HAPPENSTANCE OF BIRTH) THEIR MOTHER WAS/IS -- I.E., REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, "RACE", OR ETHNICITY!?

davidmu  10/18/2010 07:45 AM Report

To lyn117 and the rest of the conspiracy theoratiotians.

As a person who's grandparents ( yes ,each one of the 4 ) Is a sole survivor of it's family from Hitlers Europe, excuse me for taking seriously threats by Ahmedinejad and he's partners in Gazza on wanting to wipe out Israel.

And excuse me for getting shivers when hearing Palestinian kids being brain washed to see Jews as animals that must be murdered.

davidmu  10/18/2010 07:20 AM Report

He is an amazing person, thank you for the interesting interview David. I share the hope that there will be peace one day between Israel and it's neighbors.

But till then it is important to stop the incitement of kids to violence and murder within the Hamas/Iran controlled Gazza and Hizzballa/Iran controlled south Lebanon, because it is obviously a recipe for delaying a co-existence.

lyn117  10/17/2010 08:32 PM Report

Grossman is in the grips of the myth of Jewish exile - why else complain of the feeling of not having a real home? The problem I think is with the myth. Jew weren't, for the most part, expelled by the Romans from that part of the Levant 2000 years. Most of them stayed and later converted to Christianity or Islam. Some number left voluntarily - there was a lot of proselytizing by both Jews and Christians in that era - and settled throughout the Roman empire and intermarried with the local population as well as brought in converts to Judaism. That's the origin of European Jewry. They could have decided that's where their home was, but instead they developed this myth.

As anyone who knows the history knows, European Zionists created this movement to colonize Palestine and expel the original inhabitants, the Palestinian Arabs. They took their land by force of arms, by mass murder and threat of mass murder. Most of Israel doesn't really belong to Jews unless you agree that taking property at gunpoint and killing innocent people to do it is legitimate. I.e. you agree that ethnic cleansing or genocide is a legitimate way to get rid of people of the unwanted ethnic group - and note - deeming some ethnic group unwanted because of their ethnicity makes you pretty racist.

Grossman should re-examine his deeply held mythological beliefs.

worldwatcher  10/17/2010 07:35 PM Report

"And, has anyone noticed?: Israel, historically, has never missed an opportunity to *DESTROY* an opportunity for true, and anything resembling a just, peace."

Has anyone ever noticed that when Hamas and other Palestinian armed resistance/struggle organizations DO AGREE to some Israeli demand for some specified period of cessation of violence against against Israel -- first Israel demanded 2 weeks; then, when that was met, Israel demanded one month; then, when that was met, Israel demanded 60 days; then, when that was met, Israel demanded 3 months; and then, when that was met, Israel demanded 6 months; now, I think that Hamas had gone much longer than that before the Israel-Gaza war -- until Israel would just start assassinating Hamas and other Palestinian resistance leaders, or bomb some Palestinian village(s) or other Palestinian populations, or just (in Gaza's case) also trying to strangle the Palestinian population of food and other necessities of life, until the Palestinian armed resistance/struggle groups started violent resistance again (even with crude rockets, probably to bring the world's immediate attention to the Palestinians' situation again). Or, Israel makes some calculatedly and purposely impossible demand it knows that *no* Palestinian political leader could ever agree to (even Jimmy Carter has pointed this out, and, btw, no European state even agrees to recognize Israel as "A Jewish State") -- not even Israel's "Palestinian *Comprador* in Charge of 'Israeli' Settlement Security & Palestinian Garbage Collection", Mahmoud Abbas!

That's why I said:

ISRAEL NEVER MISSES AN OPPORTUNITY TO *DESTROY* AN OPPORTUNITY -- for peace.

--Because Israel doesn't want peace: from the beginning, Israel wants Palestinian *LAND*! -- more and more Palestinian *LAND*!

worldwatcher  10/17/2010 07:03 PM Report

ShalomFreedman: "i.e. that the conflict persists because of Arab intransigence and not because of Israeli reluctance to make concessions for Peace."

Yes, Israel wants more and more "peace": a "peace" of Egypt (which Egypt later got back, in part due to the 1973 war wich Israel almost lost), a big "peace" of Jordan, a "peace" of Lebanon, a "peace" of Syria; and, of course, more and more "peaces" of historic Palestine. Yes, we know, "Shalom", Israel just wants "peace". (Fundamentalist Jews want a "peace" from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates, not just to the Jordan River.) And if Israel could have its way, it would have a "peace" of it ALLL by now.

And, has anyone noticed?: Israel, historically, has never missed an opportunity to *DESTROY* an opportunity for true, and anything resembling a just, peace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ShalomFreedman: "Grossman is to be commended for both his humane approach, his desire to understand in the clearest and deepest light both sides"

Maybe we should have seen "both sides" from the *Nazi* point of view too!

The Nazis, too, fearful of Germans (well, "Aryans") being annihilated by the onerous demands of the Treaties of Versailles and the "enemies" (especially some "despised", "inferior" ethnicity of "too many") from within, were trying to revive some glorrrious ancient kingdom, and engathering some religioethnic diaspora, and inventing one "race", based on supposed "purity of blood", and exclusivity to the land, in one expansionist militarist state -- claimg to be doing God's will!!

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Both Zionism and Nazism have/had its "despised" populations; both have had its ethnic cleansing; both have created ethnic ghettos; both have had its concentration camps (with Gaza being history's largest concentration camp); both had racial purity and anti-miscegenation laws; both have had its mass imprisonment without trials and widespread torture (even inventing new and sadistic methods); both have had its collective punishment; both have tested knew weapons on a defenseless population; both used theology to claim God's will; and, of course, both had walls; both tried to erase existing countries or parts of them off the map; Hitler tried to wipe *Poland* off the map, while the Zionists have tried to wipe historic *Palestine* off the map.

I'VE GOT A *QUESTION* FOR ZIONIST JEWS:

AT *WHAT* _MORAL COST_ (TO THEMSELVES AND THEIR VICTIMS) THEIR 'GLORRRIOUS' ZIONIST/JEWISH STATE? -- THEIR 'GREAT' (AS ZIONIST JEWS CALL ISRAEL) "LIGHT UNTO THE NATIONS"?

robdverity  10/17/2010 04:32 PM Report

The obsessing about a contrived and forced artificial homeland at the expense of the human dignity and decency of others with an exorbitant arrogance and sense of entitlement (to the point of nuclear extinction) is pathological. Historical equilibrium's doubtless dictate the plight of the Jews. Time for introspection, or time for adding yet even more natural historically-ladened inevitability?

lyn117  10/17/2010 02:29 PM Report

David Grossman is a writer of fiction, and he can make his characters say and do what he wants. He says he longs for peace which he believes will give Jews a feeling of being at home, of being rooted in their own land and give them a solidity of existence. But he can't change history. Most of Israel was taken from its original inhabitants, the Palestinian Arabs, by force of arms and threats of mass murder. Israel's mass murder and theft is often justified by some mythological religious belief that the land belongs to Israel because there was a Jewish kingdom there 2000 years or so ago, even though that Jewish kingdom lasted only a few hundred years out of the 7,000 years of history, and those Jews of 2000 years ago long ago mostly adopted Christianity or Islam.

I'm sure Grossman is genuine in his longing for peace, it's just that he seems to recognize only Jewish "rights" to the land he inhabits. Most Jews in Israel are immigrants, or only one or two generations down. And at least in this interview, he largely dismisses any idea of equal rights regardless of creed. There can't be a real peace without equal rights and justice, and ignoring or covering up Israel's basis in ethnic cleansing won't bring it about.

ShalomFreedman  10/17/2010 09:44 AM Report

Most of the comments posted on the David Grossman interview do not relate to their content. Quite a few are by cowardly pathological anti- Semitic posters who dare not use their own names.

Grossman is a very warm sympathetic and understanding human being, and a writer of extraordinary skill. I have not liked especially two of his non- fiction books because they try so hard to see things from the Arab Palestinian side that they downplay the major point i.e. that the conflict persists because of Arab intransigence and not because of Israeli reluctance to make concessions for Peace.

In any case Grossman is to be commended for both his humane approach, his desire to understand in the clearest and deepest light both sides and for his deep concern for Israel and its people. His intelligence, humility, and articulateness clearly mark him out as a very special human being and writer.

robdverity  10/17/2010 12:48 AM Report

Self immolation for the creation of the world's gestapo cesspool is not too much to expect. Get over it you goyim chumps.

Be sure to pay your taxes. Our annual $3.0 billion cesspool stipend is due.

worldwatcher  10/17/2010 12:04 AM Report

doritcypis: "This is an amazing "story" by David Grossman that I wish would wake up those in denial."

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If author David Grossman not an ANTI-Zionist Jew, someone who actually OPPOSES the repugnant racist ideology of political Zionism, then he's part of the problem too and in denial.

There are many anti-Zionist Jews (that we *never* hear about in the mainstream Western media) -- even numerous European Jewish holocaust survivors, or family members (like Dr. Annette Herskovits, whom I mentioned below) of Jewish holocaust victims, or numerous Jewish former anti-Nazi resistance fighters. These Jews DEEPLY BELIEVE that, just as others shouldn't oppress Jews, Jews shouldn't oppress others -- and that one of the most dangerous problems in the contemporary world is *not* those who oppress Jews, but Jews -- Israel/Zionists -- who oppress *others* (the Palestinian people). And, in fact, there is an organization called called IJAN -- International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. I wonder if Charlie will ever interview any of these Jews!

doritcypis  10/16/2010 09:13 PM Report

Humanity at its wits end must come to its senses! This is an amazing "story" by David Grossman that I wish would wake up those in denial.