Charlie Rose

REMant  05/11/2009 09:51 PM Report

I've heard this from her before, probably on Moyers or The NewsHour. She is undoubtedly right about the governance issue, however Afghanistan was renowned for its drugs long before 1980. We did the same sort of self-defeating stuff in Vietnam as well. But I do not agree with her (or Zardari) about the universal significance of Afghanistan, tho I do, of course, think that we need a new relationship with the Muslim world. Her theory that the Pakistani army is opposed to dealing with the Taliban, enough so that they would provoke a war with India is a pretty serious charge, tho I suspect they are more Muslim than Zadarai's party is. A lot of ppl think the army rules the country anyway. It certainly did under Musharaf, and yet it is alleged that the country was better off with him. Perhaps the invasion of Swat will decide the issue, but they have done this before without finishing the job. Overall, I think she is a "civilizer," like the two presidents, and not the Frances Fitzgerald of Afghanistan.

doodahdaze  05/11/2009 01:31 PM Report

"Don't be absurd", Oh, I wouldn't dream of infringing on your "Enlightenment". Grandtrunk

grandtrunk_road  05/11/2009 12:55 PM Report

Don't be absurd, dodahdaze. No one has proposed that Chayes is invested in the heroine trade, or is likely to be. However, what should be as plain as day, regardless of one's political persuasion, is that she is an egomaniac par excellence. No doubt she genuinely believes that she is helping the Afghan people, but her sense of self-importance knows no bounds. Does she really have a special pipeline to the Chief of Military Forces in Afghanistan? And as for her advocacy on behalf on Afghan people, why has there been no hue and cry from her regarding the high number of civilian casualties as a result of US air strikes? I agree with tartufe that Chayes has carved out a niche for herself in an exotic land, one that she wishes to maintain at nearly all cost. Time to get off your ideological high horse, dadahdaze, for a spell and stop branding everybody who challenges your views as a (phony) "liberal" because that label, according to some lights, could easily be applied to Chayes herself. There comes a point where labels are fairly meaningless, except as a cheap way to discredit the opposition. If the truth be known, elements of Chayes' personality remind me of the late Diane Fossey, the fanatical protector of mountain gorillas in Uganda.

The lesson of the Rwandan genocide, which the US government ignored, and more recently, the war in Iraq is that government don't engage in foreign wars primarily to help other countries. Incidentally, is it also part of "our moral imperative" in Afghanistan that the US military train its recruits to proselytize among the Afghan people so as to convert them to God-fearing Christians? I have seen new footage of the training sessions. Is this the way to gain the trust of the Afghan people, who are reduced to being caught in the crossfire between the Taliban, on one side, and the Government forces and US aerial bombing, on the other? Isn't it a tad too soon to wax poetic about about a US mission to introduce democracy in that country?

Read the work of Sarah Chayes, etc. etc? I think Haiku would learn more from reading the novel KIM by Rudyard kipling. It speaks volumes about the well-worn designs (The Great Game") of the Western powers in Afghanistan and their efforts to dominate the region.

tartufe  05/10/2009 09:34 PM Report

60 Minutes had a well done presentation missile-firing drones in Pakistan. Too much so. I wanted to cry. They have 5-10 in the air at all times. Invisible, silent and sinister.

Our techno arrogance is so self-defeating, it's lamentable for the US and ultimately for the species.

Old cliches are cliches because they're true. "What goes around comes around." "Technology is transferable." "Do unto others . . . " Yadda, yadda.

We unleashed the nuclear genii out of its bottle. Then bombing, then missiles from ships, from fixed and rotary winged aircraft and now pilotless missile-firing drones. The only thing missing is Rumsfeld exclaming "Shock and Awe!" But alas the nukes aren't missing.

The utter mindless short-sighted pride by the (former) pilots was equally disheartening. We are a dishearteningly vicious culture. No one seems to see the paradox in multiple killing of civilians as bad, so long as our troops are kept from harms way. The concept of acceptable proportionate ratios (civilian: bad guys) is peculiarly American.

We are too vulnerable - economically - to take a hit in our confidence. But technology is transferable. A rusty cargo vessel in international waters with one retro-fitted drone missile guided into a symbollic target (a la Wall St., Statue of Liberty, Peoria) would capsize our system.

When we finally (declare victory and) leave Af-Pak, we will leave a net gain in enemies and hatred.

And the mindless, arrogant use of this techno-hubris (just because we can) is short-sighted, cruel and stupid. And it brutalizes our young in the process.

Other than that, Happy Mothers Day!

tartufe  05/10/2009 01:01 AM Report

Duly chastened Haiku. But Presidents precedents on matters they know about is why I conclusion-jumped to, why hell my judgment may be as close to correct as theirs, a la Vietnam, Iraq (Iran and Pakistan pending?). So arrogance - one of the cheapest commodities in America - provided me with the chutzpah and impudence to bristle at what struck me as easy-virtue with lives - ours and their troops (and civilians, we rush to war offshore remember).

In bad economic times even a moral obligation should be prioritized by degree of destitution. I wonder where Darfur, Somalia, (Africa throughout) would rank with Af-Pak. Resources better applied and no lives lost. Ahh but alas, no profiteering and lives lost without a M-I oligarchy promoted war.

Obama had to adopt the war as his own - for appearance sake. It was out of his hands. The oligarchy lobbyist (M-I and financial) own the system. (Ask Sen. Dick Durbun.)

Citibank, (Bobby Rubin with Larry Summers) bought Obama during the campaign, along with Northrop Grumman, Raytheon et al. Northrup Grumman's designing an atomic powered drone, capable of hovering over a target for months. A neocon's wet dream. Why hell we can fire missiles on those mud huts day and night. They'll love us of course.

Only under such a purchased system would killing 10-100 civilians for one alleged Taliban cum al Qaedan be deemed within some perverse proportional-acceptance marker.

Any problems each are having will be greatly diminished by our departure as well as a likewise reduction in recruited enemies that our continued presence will insure.

Ah but our presidents know best - as long as they dance to the fiddle'n of their master puppeteers.

doodahdaze  05/09/2009 08:56 PM Report

Haiku, while I agree that the USA should do exactly what you mention in your comment. I do not agree that the USA "has a moral obligation" to aid any nation on Earth, destitute or other. Helping them, would indeed be a moral act (after the fact). But as soon you start proclaiming speculative subjective contracts with the unforgiving unforeseeable future, you, we, the USA is just digging itself a hole of inexcusable hypocrisy, that is counter productive to any sustainable moral endeavors. Something that short sighted liberals routinely have problems understanding. But I agree, the USA must do everything that you say, and we should send the bill to Russia. They owe the USA big time for straightening out this mess that they created.

Haiku  05/09/2009 03:56 PM Report

Read the works of Sarah Chayes, Greg Mortensen, Malalai Joya before proclaiming yourself as an expert on Afghanistan. Take the President's advice and don't speak on matters you don't know about!!!

The United States has a moral obligation to aid the most destitute nations on Earth, among them, Afghanistan. We are currently fighting a war in the country, but war does not solve anything. What the United States needs to take a "Three Cups of Tea" approach -- sending doctors, nurses, irritgation and potable water experts to help the Afghans restore their country.

While sending troops is important to protect US and Afghan civilians from extremists, sending just troops does nothing to end the perpetual warzone it has been since 1979. World Peace would be better served with leadership in hunger relief, education, medicine. Once the Afghans are given the seeds of civilized society, these independent, determined, and resourceful people will mend their country themselves, but they need our help to get started.

In 2001 we freed Afghanistan of the Taliban and reintroduced democracy, but sadly, the United States has mistakenly and unknowingly appointed and backed local organized crime and militiant leaders to parliment positions and governerships, to the detriment of the civilian population they should be protecting, but are instead exploiting. Please look into the speeches of Malalai Joya, the brave and esteemed Afghan female parlimentarian and Sarah Chayes for reports of what the citizenry have been suffering under some of the current governors.

Not only do the people of Afghanistan deserve our sympathy and a helping hand as a people in need, which is the moral duty to a blessed and privilaged nation such as ours, but the people of Afghanistan have suffered for decades in part because of their allegience with the United States in battling Cold War on their own home soil!! It was not a "cold" war for the Afghans -- it has destroyed much of what was a peaceful, moderate, open Muslim society into a Taliban-run nation, country now in ruins and rubble with international forces wrecking havoc on the country since 1979!!!

It was once an open, moderate second Turkey, and Afghanistan toady is an opportunity to do the right thing and stop perpetuation of suffering and violence.

We need to secure the future of America by doing the right thing by giving Afghanistan's common people a little hope. They are resilient people, but they need us desperately right now.

tartufe  05/09/2009 12:46 PM Report

daze - one of us needs a full time translator.

doodahdaze  05/09/2009 11:49 AM Report

"She's evil?!" Oh I'm sure she has her heart set on making a mint in the poppy/heroine trade (like our "financial-services" motivated amigos).

Fart-tufe, your over eager, fake(liberal) superior moral compass guided fart missiles exemplifies about half of the extreme fucked-up childish behavior that got the world into the financial mess we're in.

This fine lady is a "real" public servant, not a FAKE! like the majority of liberal "talking" hypocrites that fill our bureaucracies. She also shows leadership abilities that probably would be squashed by the jealous "talker" powers-that-be states side.

Afghanistan has been very cooperative in the war against terrorism, they should be treated like a best friend. Pakistan on the other hand, should be wiped off the face of the map. They are just way too much trouble.