Charlie Rose

tartufe  03/19/2009 08:12 PM Report

Shalom: In an "I tod you so moment," I repeat from below, "And this is insulting. "Israel tried again and again in Gaza to help civilians get out of harm's way. The fact however is that the other side Hamas let its civilians stand as shields and cover for their missile batteries, and so called 'fighters'." Incredulous. Just because you believe that don't expect the less jaded to buy that fatuous BS."

Try this. "Israeli Soldiers Testify to War Crimes

The PulsePosted March 19, 2009 - 10:01am "During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive," Ha'aretz reported today.

At a lecture at a pre-military academy Israeli soldiers and officers gave personal accounts of murder and brutality.

Ofer Shelah in Ma'ariv:

For the first time since the end of Operation Cast Lead, testimonies have come to the fore of soldiers and officers from different units that took part in the operation. The testimonies . . . paint a harsh picture, very different from the IDF reports: Killing people who were clearly identified as innocent, driving families out of their homes to the open area where a policy was in force according to which whoever remained in the area was not an innocent person and could be shot, acts of vandalism and destroying property and humanitarian supplies, and an atmosphere in which the combatants understood that all this was permitted, and would not be investigated."

So Shalom, between the two of us who gets their facts wrong? Operation CAST LEAD fer crying out loud. With that kind of send off, atrocities were promoted.

It's easy to see why Israel is our ally, as we love to brutalize our young as well. We're both equal parts chicken shit and cowardice. We're each hell on wheels when we have a techno-advantage. Israel tanks and planes etc, we with our CS drone missiles.

Israel is a baby burning bunch of bastards. And my facts are not wrong.

tartufe  03/17/2009 01:42 PM Report

Man of disputable peace - I thought your opening applied to youself and you were going to do a mea culpa. But, alas, your in name only, still calling for the US to do by proxy what the Israelis wish were done.

And why not you're on more realistic ground than I. (For the liguists make that 'I am' not 'me am.') The Israeli lobby has the sway and the say. The M-I profiteers will gladly grasp at any straw to foment strife and grief (a la Gulf of Tonkin, WMDs, cold war etc). Throw in some 'cover' from the religious right, and hell we're off to Armageddon, arm-in-arm with our coveted and faithful ally Israel. Well maybe not so much arm-in-arm, as they seem to want us (as in US) to do it on our own. Cause we owe em? Well of course. If we love em like we should we can pay - even more. Why not? I recommend Northrup-Grumman at the market. You might even have a year or two to reap your profits.

Shawn87  03/17/2009 09:42 AM Report

sorry...the video can be viewed at this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0n85JVqXQQ

Shawn87  03/17/2009 09:41 AM Report

It is important to completely understand the mission and motivation of the party you are defending:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/y0n85JVqXQQ&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/y0n85JVqXQQ&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Also, here are some more interesting articles:

http://jcpa.org/jl/vp545.htm

ShalomFreedman  03/17/2009 03:18 AM Report

One of the problem with dialogue on Talkbacks is that often one of the respondents proves to be incapable of listening and understanding, responding in any way to the other side. Mr. Tartuffe is such a character. He seems to be filled with hatred for 'the capitalistic system' for anyone who in any way serves the military of the United States or Israel.

He often gets his facts wrong, but above all is so filled with anger and hatred that his own pleadings of sympathy for 'victims' seem an excuse for his own crying out for himself.

All of this is on the essential question discussed here, a distraction. To return to Admiral Mullen. He seems like a genuinely decent person. But he needs to understand the Iranian's recent space- launch indicates they will soon have intercontinental missiles. They soon that is may have nuclear weapons capable of reaching the continental United States. It is to be hoped that the United States will not wake up to this reality too late, and after the fact.

tartufe  03/16/2009 08:56 PM Report

More certifiable lunacy by Newscience: "The US Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) has funded at least two feasibility studies on nuclear-powered versions of the Northrop-Grumman Global Hawk UAV (pictured). The latest study, revealed earlier in February at an aerospace technology conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, concluded that a nuclear engine could extend the UAV's flight time from hours to months."

They're outfitting them with nukes.

Iran has been flying drones as well.

Technology is transferable.

Lunacy is contagious.

Ultimately, you can kiss your ass goodbye.

The M-I oligarchs have found a way to take it with them.

charlizecourriers  03/16/2009 07:51 PM Report

Ship sighted-ship sunk. The Ship of State, that is. When does he get his medal?

tartufe  03/16/2009 07:25 PM Report

What's my name? What's behind that? Everyone knows the Israeli Massoud would hunt me down and GITMOize me. Besides that my ego would get in the way. My grammar would become penetrable. I might say 'I' instead of 'me' in the objective case or whatever. (See conversation re Sec of Ed.)

We did not defeat the Soviets militarily. If you mean the cold war, the results aren't totally in on that yet. It's on going. NATO, Georgia, Ukraine, gas supplies, more oil than us, yadda, yadda. You count your chickens too presumptively.

You're too loose with assertions, re concern for civilians and 9/11 victims. Even your charge against Iranians. I don't recall the news being assailed with Iranian terrorists.

And this is insulting. "Israel tried again and again in Gaza to help civilians get out of harm's way. The fact however is that the other side Hamas let its civilians stand as shields and cover for their missile batteries, and so called 'fighters'." Incredulous. Just because you believe that don't expect the less jaded to buy that fatuous BS.

More proof that you buy into the accepted orthodoxy in power, thus the M-I oligarchy party line, "The United States may be mistaken in being in Afghanistan and even in Iraq- but it is not there to oppress or kill anyone."

Holy feces that's too naive to bother with. Let's try kill-ratios again (that you seem to overlook), remember 1300:13, or 100:1 Pals:Israelis? They'll never publish the CS drone missile murders of peasant villagers that don't know where the US is on the globe, vs the US casualties. But I'm bettin it's considerably more than 1:1, US:bad guys. Of course we're there to kill people. That's how war-for-profit works. Killing is big business. Ask Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon. They get their golly's off particularly on drone missile strikes - ramped up in the news lately - as each strike creates 10 - 100 more al-Qaida/Taliban, thus assuring sustainability indefinitely. Surely you've got a solid position in the war-profiteers stocks.

Finally this, "The anger might be justifiable if it were directed at human cruelty and justice everywhere- but in fact it seems very confined to just one or two of the world's peoples and players."

I'm lazy. The US and Israel qualify until something worse comes along. Like your damned self. Your true values came out with this gem, "In any case my sense is that the U.S. is opting out here and in doing so abandoning its friends."

So we get to risk the resultant terrorism, eh? The retaliation? The hatred? Did you offer to hold school yard combatants coats as you egged them on? You've got the chutzpah for high office. You could be under Sec to Gates or Mullins or some other scumbag profiteer with your sleaze ball values.

Final, finally. I grow weary of this banter. Israel could crap on your head and you would plead for more. Take your best shot. Blow me away. Like killing is good. Rationalized killing is even better. Let's hear it for the good ole USA. Which reminds - the CIA's been charged by the Red Cross for torture. I'm tellin ya Shalom (any sense of irony, embarrasment?), makes me so proud I could shit and fall back.

If you respond please edit out naivete' like we don't want to kill anyone. You got something against honest capitalism?

ShalomFreedman  03/16/2009 04:50 PM Report

Tartufe. What's your name? Where are you from? Why hide behind the alias? You have the constitutional right to free speech. No one 's going to punish you for saying what you think and signing your real name to it.

O.K. I will again try to answer you as best you can.The United States defeated the Soviet Union, which was truly an Evil Empire. This freed or gave the possibility of freedom to hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe. The United States can certainly be proud of that.

I understand your horror and anger at any civilian casualties .But you do not seem to be troubled very much by the thousands of Israeli civilians killed by terrorists or by the American victims of 9/11. And you seem incapable of making the fundamental distinction between those kinds of people and armies who deliberately attack civilians( The Palestinian Arabs have been doing this for over eighty years) and those whose injury of civilians comes regrettably and unintentionally.

Israel tried again and again in Gaza to help civilians get out of harm's way. The fact however is that the other side Hamas let its civilians stand as shields and cover for their missile batteries, and so called 'fighters'.

I would also add that it is not true to say that I have chosen to be on the side of those who call for destruction of a people, who wish to murder and kill the other. You might not get this but there are actually people in the world who want Peace, who want to live in harmony with their neighbors and are denied this.

The United States may be mistaken in being in Afghanistan and even in Iraq- but it is not there to oppress or kill anyone.

I also find it odd and even crazy that you accuse the United States of attacking people because of their skin color. We were enemies of the Russians for years who as you may know are not exactly 'colored people'.

One more thing. This is about your tone and your language. You are angry, filled with hate. The anger might be justifiable if it were directed at human cruelty and justice everywhere- but in fact it seems very confined to just one or two of the world's peoples and players. If you really want to be outraged I suggest you study the cruelties of a very large share of the peoples of the world. Again unfortunately whether in Darfur or Tibet or in every Arab country of the Middle East, in most of Africa , and on and on- there is much to study.

ShalomFreedman  03/16/2009 04:50 PM Report

Tartufe. What's your name? Where are you from? Why hide behind the alias? You have the constitutional right to free speech. No one 's going to punish you for saying what you think and signing your real name to it.

O.K. I will again try to answer you as best you can.The United States defeated the Soviet Union, which was truly an Evil Empire. This freed or gave the possibility of freedom to hundreds of millions of people in Eastern Europe. The United States can certainly be proud of that.

I understand your horror and anger at any civilian casualties .But you do not seem to be troubled very much by the thousands of Israeli civilians killed by terrorists or by the American victims of 9/11. And you seem incapable of making the fundamental distinction between those kinds of people and armies who deliberately attack civilians( The Palestinian Arabs have been doing this for over eighty years) and those whose injury of civilians comes regrettably and unintentionally.

Israel tried again and again in Gaza to help civilians get out of harm's way. The fact however is that the other side Hamas let its civilians stand as shields and cover for their missile batteries, and so called 'fighters'.

I would also add that it is not true to say that I have chosen to be on the side of those who call for destruction of a people, who wish to murder and kill the other. You might not get this but there are actually people in the world who want Peace, who want to live in harmony with their neighbors and are denied this.

The United States may be mistaken in being in Afghanistan and even in Iraq- but it is not there to oppress or kill anyone.

I also find it odd and even crazy that you accuse the United States of attacking people because of their skin color. We were enemies of the Russians for years who as you may know are not exactly 'colored people'.

One more thing. This is about your tone and your language. You are angry, filled with hate. The anger might be justifiable if it were directed at human cruelty and justice everywhere- but in fact it seems very confined to just one or two of the world's peoples and players. If you really want to be outraged I suggest you study the cruelties of a very large share of the peoples of the world. Again unfortunately whether in Darfur or Tibet or in every Arab country of the Middle East, in most of Africa , and on and on- there is much to study.

tartufe  03/16/2009 01:27 AM Report

What communists have we defeated. Vietnam was no victory. All I can remember is the screaming naked little napalmed girl running into hell.

Doubtless replicated in Gaza.

Exactly right. I hate atrocities anywhere Jewish or American or anyone else. American atrocities are particularly egregious. We are committing them as we speak with CS drone fired missiles, creating al-Qaida recruits, with every mindless strike. Can you imagine the sudden fury out of the sky? Reminiscent of the Nazi U2s over London. Doesn't that make you so proud you want to shit?

"You have chosen to be a defender of those who hate and preach genocide. You have chosen to be on the side of religious fundametalists . . . ."

Well so have you, oh man of peace.

"The Hamas leadership deliberately implanted all their rocket teams among the civilian population. So civilian casualties were unavoidable."

So they flattened the whole of Gaza and murdered 1300 (400 children). Was that because they couldn't find the rockets or that the rockets weren't hidden behind the children and civilians?

At one time I had no problem with either Israel or the USA. But their respective disregard for humanity makes it impossible to respect either. USA is even in the process of losing its economic advantage, making creature comforts at home while we export murder and terror (in the name of fighting terror) illusive as well. We're fast becoming a failed terrorist state with no more integrity and values than those that wish us ill. Notice how the ones we like to slaughter have discernible pigmentation? Is that because the M-I oligarchy senses that they wouldn't be able to sustain a conflict otherwise? We're brutalizing our young. Turning them into mercenary guns for hire. Paid recruits because they cant find employment for some.

Mullins and Gates have the accepted orthodoxy down pat. Raytheon, Lockheed et al are doubtless courting them and their ilk in the Bahamas etc. By the same token the Jewish lobby doubtless is a special soft spot with them - along with the Mexican drug cartels. They both require endless arms replenishment. What more could you ask for.

Shalom? Not on this planet - until it's a cinder. Shalom? Not in a pig's ass.

ShalomFreedman  03/15/2009 11:27 PM Report

For Tartuffe. I now see where you are coming from. You are one of those who lives in a free democratic United States but actually hates and resents it. You speak of the United States as if it were the aggressor when in fact it has been the United States which in the twentieth- century defeated the two great Totalitarian threats, the Nazi Fascist and the Communist. I suspect it is the defeat of the latter which most upsets you.

As for Iran's being the major exporter of Terror this is not mitigated by the fact that Saudi Arabia is not exactly a force for enlightentment. The Saudis have played a double- game , and are implicated in global terror. Why should that excuse the Iranians?

Your analysis of Israel's actions in Gaza is flawed. Israel withdrew from Gaza, removed its own civilian people from there. The response to this has been rockets on the civilian population of Southern Israel. All the Gazans had to do was stop firing and attacking Israel and they would not have been attacked. But encouraged by their Iranian patrons and by their own fanatical genocidal hatred they continued to attack, and to this day continue to attack. A sovereign country has to protect its citizens. It took a long time before Israel truly reacted. It did not fall into the trap of its previous operation against Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon. It did not try to save enemy civilian lives at the cost of its own soldiers. Its having done that in the past was an exception the only time I have heard of an Army doing that. Hamas is a terrorist organization and as you know they swim among their own people. The Hamas leadership deliberately implanted all their rocket teams among the civilian population. So civilian casualties were unavoidable.

You have chosen to be a defender of those who hate and preach genocide. You have chosen to be on the side of religious fundametalists who in their treatment of women are the most backward people of the world.

You self- righteously defend those who would deny other human beings who do not share their religious faith and political convictions the right not only to freedom but to life.

One more comment. Your snide little anti- Jewish remarks in a previous posting also show where you stand when it comes to real respect for others different from you. Why are you extreme leftists always such bigots at heart?

ShalomFreedman  03/15/2009 11:27 PM Report

For Tartuffe. I now see where you are coming from. You are one of those who lives in a free democratic United States but actually hates and resents it. You speak of the United States as if it were the aggressor when in fact it has been the United States which in the twentieth- century defeated the two great Totalitarian threats, the Nazi Fascist and the Communist. I suspect it is the defeat of the latter which most upsets you.

As for Iran's being the major exporter of Terror this is not mitigated by the fact that Saudi Arabia is not exactly a force for enlightentment. The Saudis have played a double- game , and are implicated in global terror. Why should that excuse the Iranians?

Your analysis of Israel's actions in Gaza is flawed. Israel withdrew from Gaza, removed its own civilian people from there. The response to this has been rockets on the civilian population of Southern Israel. All the Gazans had to do was stop firing and attacking Israel and they would not have been attacked. But encouraged by their Iranian patrons and by their own fanatical genocidal hatred they continued to attack, and to this day continue to attack. A sovereign country has to protect its citizens. It took a long time before Israel truly reacted. It did not fall into the trap of its previous operation against Hizbollah in Southern Lebanon. It did not try to save enemy civilian lives at the cost of its own soldiers. Its having done that in the past was an exception the only time I have heard of an Army doing that. Hamas is a terrorist organization and as you know they swim among their own people. The Hamas leadership deliberately implanted all their rocket teams among the civilian population. So civilian casualties were unavoidable.

You have chosen to be a defender of those who hate and preach genocide. You have chosen to be on the side of religious fundametalists who in their treatment of women are the most backward people of the world.

You self- righteously defend those who would deny other human beings who do not share their religious faith and political convictions the right not only to freedom but to life.

One more comment. Your snide little anti- Jewish remarks in a previous posting also show where you stand when it comes to real respect for others different from you. Why are you extreme leftists always such bigots at heart?

tartufe  03/15/2009 09:56 PM Report

Questionable man-of-peace-and-freedom. Unfortunately, I see no evidence for tendering an apology to you. In fact your rationalizations will imo bring us closer to nihilism than not. Taking one-by-one:

1. "It has been the world's major exporter of Terror for the past three decades. Its leaders share a totalitarian Islamic ideology and a deep sense that Iran will eventually rule the Middle East. They also have the sense that eventually the world as a whole will be ruled by an Islamic Caliphate."

Why not the Saudis? They provided most of the 911 terrorists. The rest of the radical rant is not what I would want to base WWIII or a nuclear winter on.

2. "Their attaining nuclear weapons will , as Admiral Mullen said lead to nuclear proliferation in other regions of the world."

Mullen's is discounted with me at the outset, as a feckless mouthpiece for the M-I oligarchy. But the proliferation would spread even faster if Iran's capability is removed. That would only strengthen it's potency for other would be nations. Just make them more surreptitious about it, but all the more determined. Like I said nukes are out of Pandora's box, or the genie's bottle. They ain't (unfortunately) going back in.

3. "Therefore they should be stopped from attaining nuclear weapons.

"The U.S. is in a far better position to do this than Israel."

First of all that's egregiously arrogant. Two of the most callous and hardened disrespectors of human life and humanity on the planet dictating who has the right to nukes is a hollow mockery of common sense and logic. Rank the nations for the last 50 to 100 years by lives taken. The US has gotta be first both outright and on a per capita basis. On a per capita basis, guess who my guess is for second.

Further, if we get backed into an untenable military corner, say because of our weakened economy, our hubris and wounded pride would provide rationale to be (again) the first to resort to nukes.

In short we have no moral standing to be the final arbiter on who should have or should not have nukes. Nor does Israel.

Of course you can assert 'might-makes-right.' But that short-lived bit of arrogance is what has got us where we are to day.

4. "In any case my sense is that the U.S. is opting out here and in doing so abandoning its friends."

That's priceless. The cumulative trillions given to Israel since it inception all at once mean nothing. And arguably the 911 lives lost due to that excessive friendship. Well screw you and the horse you rode in on.

WITH FRIENDS LIKE YOU AND ISRAEL WE DON'T NEED ENEMIES!!!

5. "As for Israel its struggle to survive in a hostile environement continues. The Hamas and Hizbollah jihadists are next door implanting their missiles among the civilian population. They are viciously cruel people who sacrifice their own civilians in order to attain 'military propaganda victories'. Israel is a truly decent country and has an Army which goes out of its way to avoid causing civilian casualties."

This whole paragraph is pathetically pitiful, or pitifully pathetic. Gaza is one big ghetto. Weapons anywhere are ipso facto going to be relatively close to civilians. They're in virtually every square inch.

The Israeli:Palestinian kill ratio 1300:13 (100:1 in latest incursion) and always over 30:1. Then you have the chutzpah to call THEM cruel. Israel's settlements add to THEIR cruelty. Humiliating them by denying them common civil infrastructure, water, sewer, electricity, thoroughfares without humiliating check points, yadda yadda and for half a century. Burn my children with phosphorus and see if I wouldn't gladly call in a nuclear strike on my own head if it take out such an enemy.

6. "But if you are going to accuse someone, the least you can do is inquire seriously into the nature of the society, its military."

The society backs the military. The military is exemplary and heroic when it comes to murder(1300) and burning babies(1/3 x 1300) or over 400 were children.

Your bias is not even charming. If an Islamic country did exactly what Israel has and is doing you would condemn them with a vehemence.

Lastly, just maybe if Israel were to remove all settlements and roadblocks and curtailments of infrastructure and stopped the knee-jerk retaliations for the bottlerocket attacks (by comparison) and did a thousand and one things and held their noses for several years (to prove intent and good faith) they'll come closer (no guarantees at this late date) to gaining an uneasy peace, that if lasted say three generations the ME might not be the linch-pin for Armageddon. Yeah, I don't believe it either.

ShalomFreedman  03/15/2009 02:58 AM Report

For Mr. Tartuffe Since you have decided to respond in a reasonable way I will try to answer you as best I can. As I understand it Iran is not simply another nation. It has been the world's major exporter of Terror for the past three decades. Its leaders share a totalitarian Islamic ideology and a deep sense that Iran will eventually rule the Middle East. They also have the sense that eventually the world as a whole will be ruled by an Islamic Caliphate.

Their attaining nuclear weapons will , as Admiral Mullen said lead to nuclear proliferation in other regions of the world.

Their possessing of nuclear weapons is a most immediate threat to Israel, and then to Saudi Arabia, and then to the whole of the Middle East, and then to wherever their proxies operate.

Therefore they should be stopped from attaining nuclear weapons.

The U.S. is in a far better position to do this than Israel. It has superior weaponry , superior position, and of course far more global political strength.

This does not necessarily mean that the U.S. should do this now. A strike upon Iran could devastate its military facilities but lead to a counter- strike which would be disastrous first of all for American ally, Israel but also for others in the area. But it may well be also that the U.S. is capable of cleaning preempting Iran now. I don't know.

Can Israel preempt Iran without some kind of cooperative help from the United States? I also do not know, but think this unlikely.

What troubles me and perhaps assures you is the sense that the American military and political leadership are simply not up to taking on Iran now. They are involved in , what is in my opinion, an operation in Afghanistan which cannot possibly yield any kind of significant benefit to the U.S. Even in Iran, I believe the U.S. is being a bit optimistic. The Iranians next door, and the Sunnites within have a long time to wait and act.

In any case my sense is that the U.S. is opting out here and in doing so abandoning its friends.

Iran, nuclear or not, is not going away, and is not going to become a friend of the United States. Ideologically and culturally its regime despises the U.S. It is ironic that the very people , the Brezhinski group who under Carter tried once to appease Iran and failed, are now at the head of a Realist political school advocating a similar Appeasement now.

I do not envy the difficult tasks the U.S. political and millitary leadership have ahead. But I do believe mealy- mouthed appeasement of determined enemies is a one - way street to defeat.

As for Israel its struggle to survive in a hostile environement continues. The Hamas and Hizbollah jihadists are next door implanting their missiles among the civilian population. They are viciously cruel people who sacrifice their own civilians in order to attain 'military propaganda victories'. Israel is a truly decent country and has an Army which goes out of its way to avoid causing civilian casualties. The whole business of turning Truth upside down and making it the aggressor, and the cruel party is disgusting and stupid. Anyone who has a real knowledge of the Middle Eastern realities knows that Israel is not only the only real democracy in the area, but the only one which truly cares about human freedom and dignity.

People who rant against Israel simply do not know the society, the people, and the situation it is in and the reality it faces.

As an American you may not think you have to know every country in the world, and really understand it. But if you are going to accuse someone, the least you can do is inquire seriously into the nature of the society, its military.

One more thing. The friendship of the United States and Israel is based on shared values of Democracy and Freedom, no small part of which have their root in Biblical ideals of human justice. The U.S. abandoning of Israel will be an abandoning of its own soul. When the greatest nation in the world thinks only about protecting the continental United States, as Secretary Gates said the other day, the whole world is in trouble.

tartufe  03/14/2009 07:24 PM Report

Man of peace and freedom says, "What Israelis are concerned with is that a regime which has called for Israel's destruction is on the verge of attaining weapons of mass destruction. That is what concerns Israel is a very realistic threat facing it."

My query and sense of what you and your counterparts express all seem to desire - implicitly at least - is the US be a proxy for Israel and physically take out Iran's nuclear sites. Or if not that provide political and military cover as needed for Israel to do it.

DavLev advocates bomb, bomb and more bombs. And you assert, "The dialogue proposed by Admiral Mullen here also will be incapable of doing anything but providing further time for the Iranians to complete their project."

DavLev's is more forthright than yours, but nonetheless, still said without saying it. How do you stop "providing further time" without military intervention? If by that and other statements you are not promoting proxy or direct military action, I apologize.

Nukes are out of the proverbial Pandora's box. It's something we'll apparently have to live and, imo, ultimately die with.

Taking out Iran's capability could cut either way. It may delay or accelerate the 'ultimate-conflagration.' Taking out Iran's as an example could inflame Pakistan's zealots. Or N. Korea's or yadda, yadda.

But I agree Israelis concern is doubtless magnified by the reputation they have emanated from their "bold heroic" decimation of Gaza. It's only natural that they think they just might be treated in a similarly brutal fashion and then some. Prolonged humiliation may well foment over reaction.

Perhaps that fatuous bit of reasoning should rationalize that Israel should overreact first. Go ahead bomb, bomb and bomb again. It wouldn't be 'stupid and wrong.' Until of course there's some inconsiderate counter overreaction. The final, inevitable spiral, eh?

ShalomFreedman  03/14/2009 05:43 PM Report

This is a message for the bold hero who hides behind the Tartufe moniker. I had some difficulty deciphering your gibberish but what I believe you said is that Israel is very eager for some kind of attack on, and nuclear conflict with Iran. That is stupid and wrong. What Israelis are concerned with is that a regime which has called for Israel's destruction is on the verge of attaining weapons of mass destruction. That is what concerns Israel is a very realistic threat facing it.

Your idiotic suggestion that Israelis would be happy with a nuclear exchange is simply that idiotic. As Iran has lied and deceived the U.N. and the world in pushing its weapons program forward , U.S. imposed sanctions have been wholly ineffective. The dialogue proposed by Admiral Mullen here also will be incapable of doing anything but providing further time for the Iranians to complete their project.

Once that happens as Admiral Mullen indicated the world will see more proliferation, and greater danger of nuclear war.

It thus is very much in the interest of the U.S. and all its allies to not see a nuclear Iran come into being. Israel the most directly threatened by Iran has of course that interest also.

ShalomFreedman  03/14/2009 05:28 PM Report

Admiral Mullen is so reasonable and calm in his responses that it is difficult to feel any enemy might be threatened by him. What also disturbs a bit is his seeming naievete, whether this relates to Russia, China, Iran, or even Afghanistan and Pakistan. He seems to have a sense that these are all reasonable people of good- will who once the U.S. talks with, will somehow act rationally for the mutual benefit. He oddly gives a feeling that really the U.S. has no enemies.The concept of Radical Islamic Fundamentalism does not enter the conversation even though he speaks of the Middle East as the most dangerous region in the world. While he says he believes Iran is definitely aiming to achieve a nuclear capability he makes the clearly over- optimistic suggestion that Iran will halt its nuclear push if given a great package of sweeteners. He does say a word of appreciation for the young people serving in the Armed Forces. And he concludes by saying that he is most concerned about what might happen in Pakistan should a theocratic regime come to power which would have control over Pakistani nuclear weapons.

REMant  03/13/2009 11:34 PM Report

Well, we learned that stability is the Admiral's first priority and that he equates that with the opposite of theocracy. Everything else is above his pay grade. I can't say I am surprised by any of that.

tartufe  03/13/2009 06:08 PM Report

Like I said below and repeat here, "Re Iran, nukes and Israel. Israel (our gasp, choke ally) is a lose-cannon that is less than comforting re this these days. The Israeli’s will be disappointed if, say, after five years pass without an Iranian launch. It might even prove to be a leavening agent for Israeli truculence. But don’t hold your breath."

As seen below you can exhale now. Excerpting the most salient, "bomb, bomb and more bombs on their facility, backed up by our (nuclear armed) fleet in the Sea of Japan."

Conflate that bit of bombast with the religious right who indeed are "waiting for the Messiah," and you have a recipe for the self-fulfilling Armageddon deemed fanciful by too many. Fanatical by others.

Bellicose truculence gets your attention while validating a point that would be better unfounded. Jingo bells all the way.

But hell yes! Why not? The species is proving to be a failed experiment anyway - fittingly so on Darwin's anniversary.

When you think about it there's some lyrical poetry to a biblical-like conflagration over the so-called Holy Land, home of God's select. Like a fine wine. Ask em.

It's a comforting and warm fuzzy feeling to think that God will be pleased to have his favorites back in the fold and at his feet once again. His obedient servants having served Him well, having rightly and justly obliterated the infidels and blaspheming wrong believers. Beginning and ending, full circle.

Oye vey! The wailing and gnashing of teeth will be music to the Chosen. Their day hath come.

KABOOOMMB!! Then Shalom! Ahhhhhh! Finally the peace we and only we so richly deserve.

DavLev  03/13/2009 04:26 PM Report

I thought Charlie's questions were salient, but was dismayed at the Admiral's evasiveness. If he doesn't know,

than I ask, who does? Frankly, I don't trust US intelligence, look at Iraq's pre-war information. We saw Iraq shipments in hundreds of trucks to Syria. What did we expect to find re: WMD? Captured Iraqi military confirmed that they had enough time. Saddam was given one year to prove he had destroyed them. Sure it's hard to prove a negative, but all he had to do was say, "I put the biological/chemical agents in those trucks", or "I can prove their destruction with my very concise and complete

records". He didn't. Soooooo, to avoid another 911 in our country, perhaps with smallpox or anthrax, we invaded, and within 3 weeks got rid of the worst dictator since Adolph.

The rest is still in the voir dire. If I were Mullen, I would

rely on the best and brightest, the Israelis. He knows that,

or if he doesn't know, or for political reasons cannot say (my feeling), they will eventually have to take out the three nuke plants. That WILL push forward by a few years, their goal of total destruction of Tel Aviv, perhaps our other allies in the M.E., and US interests. Mullen mentioned

the problem of US citizens in the Gulf...well, duh, move them out ASAP to safer locations. Mullen was also evasive on China and No. korea. The latest Chinese provocation at our vessel is irrelevant, of no consequence. I am worried

over there 400 nukes..mostly aimed at Taiwan..and our fleet in the Pacific. He talked about Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Charlie has interviewed reporters stationed in Afghanistan, who all say it's a losing battle. 60 million Pashtuns can supply young men forever to battle the thin US and NATO forces in a country twice the size of California. We are sending more men to certain deaths. Or as Bill Maher says, tthe insurgents can hide in caves forever. He is right in this respect. Stop the opium trade, and you stop the Taliban. Talking to the good Taliban..oh come on, there are no good Taliban, now or in the future. Simply put, the Admiral, even though wearing all that lettuce, seems to come up like rotting tomatoes. I am deeply disappointed that he seems to be following the Obama approach, talk, engage and try diplomacy, while they aim their missiles more menacingly at US and our few friends (in spite of all oour charity and aid to them). To Admiral Mullen, aren't you aware that Iran has violated three UNSC resolutions prohibiting the enrichment of uranium? Aren't you aware that their ship of arms to Gaza, in spite of other requirements, has gotten little publicity? You think No. korea's orbiting of a satellite means they can fire a long range missile (with a nuclear tip) at Southern California, yet you have no plans to thwart it? My suggestion, bomb, bomb and more bombs on their facility, backed up by our (nuclear armed) fleet in the Sea of Japan. What are we waiting for, the Messiah?

tartufe  03/13/2009 02:52 PM Report

What a feckless foil for the M-I oligarch. They have to know, but care less, that anti-Americanism is an idea and not geography.

There’s probably more actual terrorist anti-American plotting in Yemen and Somalia than in A-P. Maybe throw in N. Korea, Sudan on and on. Our reputation precedes us globally. Taint only in Afghanistan-Pakistan. We’re arrogant in any language, any climate, any terra firma and will travel - as long as China keeps buying our T-bills. Which is justifiably starting to worry them. In today's news.

Spikes in violence in Iraq will offer more fodder for sustaining that conflict and with luck (for the M-I blood-suckers - literally) re-ignite it and send troops BACK in after the draw down to 50,000 troops. Another surge. W will wet himself with glee - along with Raytheon et al.

Re Iran, nukes and Israel. Israel (our gasp, choke ally) is a lose-cannon that is less than comforting re this these days. The Israeli’s will be disappointed if, say, after five years pass without an Iranian launch. It might even prove to be a leavening agent for Israeli truculence. But don’t hold your breath.

China. Needless provocation re international waters, a la similar mindlessness re Poland missile defense. China’s ace-in-the-hole. Stop buying our T-bills. Again see today's news.

Mexico. US gun exports to assist drug imports. Until the M-I complex profit margins become too meager for their greed, nothing will change.

Young men and women valor provides Mullen's most optimism. A-P his most pessimism. Yet no hint of leaving the area, despite creating more enemies with our presence than with our departure. He probably thinks drone missile strikes are not techno-terrorism and a good thing, because of its recruitment tactics for al Qaida and a prolonged conflict for his keepers (Raytheon et al).

The repeated, scripted, unctuous, oily patronizing of our ‘fine young service men and women’ is enough to gag-a-maggot. This is from a career jingo that survives and thrives on their continued existence in harms way. He means it from a real personal perspective. Without them he’s an emptier suit - and perhaps sans the gaudy buffoonery on his sleeves etc. Guys like him seem to have no sense of embarrassment. He’s a grown man fer chris sake. In a day and age when only used car salesmen wear ties anymore.

He and too many more (including O unfortunately) are moving “T-day” (terrorist at home) hours closer per day. Counterproductively!

Maybe our financial oligarch’s stupidity will trump our M-I oligarch’s stupidity, and thereby inadvertently will have done a good thing (for once). Accidentally of course.

robertfmorrison  03/13/2009 01:43 PM Report

The Admiral would look more natural if he didn't gesticulate.

robertfmorrison  03/13/2009 12:13 PM Report

The Admiral would make a better more natural appearance without the use of his hand gesticulations.