Charlie Rose

poet_for_a_day  02/17/2009 02:00 AM Report

Everyone talks the same

Getting close but what not to say

You cannot see

The forest through the trees

A single club

All look like thugs

A single love

You see the thugs

Now you don’t

Now you see them

tartufe  02/05/2009 02:38 PM Report

WSJ today:

Gaza suffered $1.9 billion in damages in the 22-day Israeli offensive that ended last month, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, the agency the United Nations relies on for data from the territory. More than 4,100 homes, about 1,500 factories and workshops and 80% of agricultural crops were destroyed, and about 50,000 people are now homeless, the agency estimates. Infrastructure was severely degraded, including sewage, water and electrical systems.

tartufe  02/03/2009 02:41 AM Report

No rocket science to discern why Israelis despise Carter. He wants peace.

B3 = BABY BURNING BASTARDS = ISRAELIS.

Amnesty International said that Israel's reluctance to admit its use of the munitions had cost lives. Most victims were treated as normal burns cases Amnesty said, but the phosphorous particles embedded in the flesh kept burning under the dressings, sometimes causing irreparable damage to internal organs. (© The Times, London)

- James Hider in Jerusalem and Sheera Frenkel in Gaza City

N.B.: This comment deleted by monitors, despite documentation. Inflammatory? That's the hope. Total acceptance and apologistic rationale will only insure the moral hazard of repetition.

doodahdaze  02/02/2009 12:39 PM Report

There you go Jan, you got a fan. We don't usually let him out of his cage, but for you, we'll make an exception. <wink>

tartufe  02/02/2009 12:22 PM Report

Jan - spot on. The conflation of corporate (think Citigroup et al) and corrupt government (think Barney Frank, Henry Paulson et al) makes for a capitalistic destroying complicity that could ultimately threaten democracy itself.

Citigroup was instrumental in getting legislation passed or repealed (Glass-Steagall), overriding states usury laws, more stringent bankruptcy laws re health and unemployment on and on.

Paulson with his faux sense of urgency stemming from an original three page proposed hand out pulled off one of the biggest heists in history to bailout the perpetrators of the financial mess - the very ones laissez faire capitalism would have purged.

Now even Obama's appointees are being tainted with the same egregiously greedy brush - now Daschle (Dancer to Blitzen?).

Can you visualize the corruption associated with the printed money coming in the bailouts? Our grand kids will be forced into anarchy. Taxed into perpetual poverty bailing out the mess the financial wise-guys got us into.

But this is a helluva digression from the baby burning bastards Mr. Carter has tried to save from themselves.

doodahdaze  02/02/2009 11:06 AM Report

Fart-tufe, do you see what you've let your chosen name evolve into?... In the name of correct secular evolution! Man! Do something about it!!!... You beast.

doodahdaze  02/02/2009 09:45 AM Report

Miss Jan, you are a very good example of my previous posts. If one follows the logic of your chosen view of history and exemplitive points of exaggeration, one must conclude that the world began when Miss Jan was born... Miss Jan, enjoy looking down on your cartoons.

Jan  02/02/2009 08:01 AM Report

"Ronald Reagan is viewed by many Americans today as a great president."

During the Reagan Administrations, I was at university with 10,000 fellow students and the Reagan supporters held very lonely rallies. Many of us found President Reagan's world view simplistic and, at times, cartoonish. Today, I continue to view Reagan's simple-minded economic and governmental approach as the seeds for our present day problems. Culturally he encouraged extravagance as the standard and value as merely monetary. Businesses and corporations were the sacred cows, allowed to go anywhere and do anything. Even back then, the long-term consequences of his policies seemed obvious. Today, they are undeniably evident.

doodahdaze  02/02/2009 06:39 AM Report

You're going down, Tart-tufe. <wink>

doodahdaze  02/02/2009 06:30 AM Report

"It's interesting how the liberal-immersed academics and intellectuals try to cover up their lack of depth of real world knowledge and very shallow capacity to comprehend anything that doesn't fit into the preconceived notions of their snobbery aspirations, by faking their humanity." - a very wise man

William  02/02/2009 03:53 AM Report

Tom:

Not sanguine but instructive.

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/02/a-minority-repo.php

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/the-mother-of-all-quagmires-14423?search=1

tartufe  02/02/2009 12:21 AM Report

Israel creates its own rampant incitement in world publicity with its forever implanted resentment in those immediately involved. Murdering children - particularly with phosphorus - can be nothing but a premeditated marker of sorts.

Take that and we will laugh at your response, but we will wail and moan and beat our breast, and remind the world of our heroic forbearance in the holocaust. However, we will not forbear brutalizing you and yours again, and again as needed. Killing a child now means not having to kill an adult later. A perpetual state of hostility might be the goal, but it may backfire long term.

The demographics say that ultimately they'll copulate Israelis away from a place at the ME table. That assumes a table will even exist.

William  02/01/2009 09:57 PM Report

Tom:

First, I urge you to re-read and then re-think my previous post. You will see that nowhere did I write or imply that "we are better than them". Here is the exact wording: "people everywhere do not think alike and do not share the same values". Indeed, that statement was carefully crafted to exclude your conclusion. Indeed, if I were inclined to widen the issue I would readily concede that, although it would necessarily be a subjective judgment, there are many non-western societies whose values are in many ways superior to ours; so, I cannot account for your interpretation. From your previous post I noticed that in several areas our travels overlapped so I find your assertion of general commonalities to be even more strained. I suspect that we may have either traveled in vastly different circles or that you are inclined to views more pleasant than really allows.

In deference to you, on the other hand, I recognize that the peaceful resolution of conflict relies on at least the appearance of shared values (or perhaps common interests would be a better choice of words). Along those lines it would be helpful if the leaders of the OIC (by the way, it was the Arab League - the 21 plus the putative Palestine - whose peace plan that you tout not the 57) would refrain from standing ovations for Mahathir Mohamad for the blatant ant-Semitism in his 2003 speech before that very body when he argued that the Jews control the world. His exact words were: "They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy, so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have gained control of the most powerful countries and they, this tiny community, have become a world power". And, he also said that "The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million, but today the Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them". At least he recognized the six million. That's rather an enlightened view considering the official pronouncements of many of the member states.

Tom, you know full well that this speech is not an isolated illustration nor has the situation improved in the least since it was given. How many instances of incitement against Jews would you estimate occurred just last Friday in the 57 Muslim nations? Would you like a few samples? I rather think not lest exposure of the depth of this problem thoroughly discredit your common decency thesis. As I have suggested elsewhere tangible incremental steps toward ending this conflict, such as ending the rampant incitement conducted in UN controlled schools and UNRWA facilities, would go far in the arena of "confidence building".

Now, I don't have any interest in imposing my morality on the 57 or the 22 or whomever; nor, am I interested in altering their internal structure. I am dispassionate on the subject. A very real conflict, however, comes into play when their shockingly wicked values are exported or imposed outside of their boundaries. That is exactly why the 2002 Arab Peace plan lacks support. It is the bona fide assessment that "this tiny community" of Jews in Israel would cease to exist if it were foolish enough to adopt the plan. You must know that Article 2 (b) of the 2002 Arab Peace plan calls for the Israelis to accept Article 11 of UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

Article 11 of the resolution reads:

(The General Assembly) Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

This is the so-called "right of return" - the flooding of Israel proper with millions of Arabs with not even the slightest inclination to "live at peace with their neighbours". First you are certainly aware that this resolution does not have the force of law, it is only a recommendation. And second, in common parlance, Israelis in general are not in favor of committing national suicide to gain some ephemeral acceptance from the international community. Implementing the full "right of return" would accomplish that exact end - national suicide. The plan is, again in the vernacular, simply a poison pill and you as seasoned diplomat must surely know that. The final general criticism that I will make of the plan is that it is several clear backward steps from the Oslo accords, the Wye River Memorandum, the Camp David 2000 Summit and the Taba summit. The only positive thing that I take from it is that it came from Arabs in general instead of just the specific Arab communities surrounding Israel.

Kicking the can down the road a little, I "cannot say that country X forced 1,000 Jews to leave and therefore Israel had the right to force 1,000 Palestinians out of their villages" and I did not say it; but, the topic of population exchanges and expulsions is most certainly germane and not at all tangential as you have suggested. If you believe that the expulsion of upwards of 800,000 Jews from Arab countries in the months and years following Israel's War of Independence is "a different topic altogether" then we have no further need to engage. You evoked the vision of a "bridge of humanity" and in this case I am going to insist that traffic on this bridge is two-way. I did not summon up Fridtjof Nansen because of some nebulous affinity for Norwegian skiers. I am abundantly aware of his statesmanlike work with the Greeks and Turks and of the exchange of over two million people between Poland and the Soviet Union as well as the 13 plus million Hindus and Muslims who crossed the India-Pakistan border. If the Arab League proposes a "full peace accord" then the status of expelled Jews (minus the Jewish population expelled from Iran) should by all means be included.

I am also keenly aware of the expulsion of over 900,000 Germans from Czechoslovakia following World War II precisely because their benefactors lost an aggressive war. If the Arab League refuses to discuss the so-called Palestinian refugees as part of a population exchange, then they should be regarded exactly like the 900,000 expelled from Czechoslovakia. The Arab League (which then consisted of seven countries) armies of Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, with contingents from Saudi Arabian and Yemen invaded as the new State of Israel was formed. This was a war not only of aggression but a war of annihilation. Azzam Pasha, the Secretary of the Arab League, screamed on Cairo radio "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades". The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini screamed to heaven "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!"

Tom, these "refugees", even if they are as wretched as you claim, can never return to Israel en masse. They can always be incorporated in the nascent Palestinian State or any other country that will have them but never to Israel. A perpetual state of hostility would be preferred.

I must stop now. Again, I ask your indulgence for the typos, my secretary rightly resists working over these tracts. I look forward to your reply.

tartufe  02/01/2009 03:51 PM Report

Mr Freedman wrote, "wo101 also seems to not know his Bible, that minor work of Literature created by the Jews in the land of Israel. Could there ever be a stronger claim for possession of a land than this book , one which has given so much to mankind as a whole? The Jewish historical connection to the Holy Land goes back over three- thousand five hundred years."

Stronger claim than this book? Well, yes, and the Israeli's are using it: Panzer Tanks, SS troops, settlements, infanticide, phosphorus shells, fighter jets, helicopters, _________________, other (fill in the blank).

"The Jewish historical connection . . . ." The Iroquois of NY (or some such tribe or tribes) could tout their historical connection as well. So let's make a good ole fashion Indian swap (minus the trinkets and $24.00). NY City (hell we'll throw in Poughkeepsie) for Israel. Think of the peace potential.

The third rock from the sun may not convert to the third cinder under such a swap.

davisabbott  02/01/2009 01:03 PM Report

President Jimmy Carter is a very smart man. Does he know EVERYTHING about the situation? Obviously not. Does he care that there is peace in Israel that is fair to both sides? Obviously yes. Carter should be Baracks Middle East Envoy.......but that is an opinion.

TomHicks79  02/01/2009 11:36 AM Report

My experiences of living in Europe, the Middle East, China and Japan have led me to a different conclusion from yours. I strongly believe that there is a common set of values that people of all cultures share. It is the height of moral arrogance to assume that our Western cultures are somehow better than those in other parts of the world many of which had advanced civilizations when we were still in the dark ages. The implied attitude that "we are better than them" is a destructive one in the long term.

I am somewhat aghast that you concluded that I was referring to Israel when I gave an example of one person robbing banks while another kills, but I guess I cannot help how you think! I was only emphasizing that someone's wrong deed is not redeemed if the other person commits a worse act. To think otherwise puts us in a frame of mind that allows us to justify the most horrible acts by dehumanizing the other side.

I did not respond to your post on Jewish refugees from Arab countries because that is a different topic altogether and would lead us down too many tangents. I have seen quite a few studies on this issue and while the numbers differ significantly depending on who sponsored the study, the issue cannot be used to justify what happened to the Palestinians. You cannot say that country X forced 1,000 Jews to leave and therefore Israel had the right to force 1,000 Palestinians out of their villages! Each country is responsible for its own actions.

You also wrote that "a Palestinian State has been offered ad nauseam and declined ad hoc". This is an exaggerated and overly simplistic statement. The most realistic peace offer currently on the table is the 2002 Arab Peace plan which offers Israel full recognition and diplomatic relations by 57 Arab and Muslim nations in exchange for an end to the occupation and a full peace accord. Last November, the Palestinian Authority took out full page advertisements in several Israeli newspapers to make more Israelis aware of this offer (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7739198.stm). Unfortunately, the Israeli government which says it is considering this plan (for over 6 years now), has still not responded positively. Further, a Jerusalem Post poll showed that Most Israelis oppose the Arab peace plan (http://tinyurl.com/57ztbp)

I am not taking sides but balancing your views so that we all realize that both sides have valid claims; both sides hurt; both sides want peace and there are extremists (religious and otherwise) on both sides that don't. No one side has a monopoly on morality in this festering conflict. The common Israeli family man and the common Palestinian family man has much in common including decency, morality and a genuine desire for living peacefully. I find regrettable that some of us in the West have let our superiority complex, especially towards Arabs and Moslems, blind us to human side of both the Israeli and the Palestinian people.

doodahdaze  02/01/2009 11:21 AM Report

So we meet again, Tardouche. And once again, your touchy-feely, overly-sensitive, over-done lopsided liberal "ineffectual" educated ill-logical logic and blatant lack of sense of humor, only serves to impress yourself... What will I do when I grow up?. Oh I don't know, I guess I'll take your place as the self appointed Mayor of McDonalds. <smile>

Do you see my smile?... I learned that from President Carter.

chrisbak  02/01/2009 01:44 AM Report

It's been a 60-year civil war between Jews and the Palestinians over what were majority Arab lands, and "humanity" isn't the word I would use to describe the behavior of either side. However the Palestinians are nowhere near defeated and in world public opinion, which is what Hamas is apparently playing for, it seems they even may be winning. Thanks to ex-President Carter for coming on the program.

tartufe  02/01/2009 01:14 AM Report

William says, "Is it possible that aside from the political considerations these folks may have a pretty good racket going here?"

Faux pas? Exposes value system, but not of the "folks" cited.

Israel got $2.4 billion from the U.S. last year. Good racket? Damn straight.

tartufe  02/01/2009 12:40 AM Report

Preston, I suspect you are bulbous ex schoolyard bully that incited fights amongst others and then shouted derisions at the combatants. That bit of prescience is from your innumerable hit-and-run type posts.

Prove me wrong and I'll gladly apologize. Till then -

What're you gonna be when you grow up?

William  02/01/2009 12:23 AM Report

Tom:

Thanks for taking the time to respond in such a personable manner. I, too, am an older individual having retired from the military, from teaching (mathematics) and from a long stint at church work. While I have never been to the Middle East, the bulk of my military career was spent overseas. The lasting lesson from that service was the simple observation that counter to all of the prevailing platitudes people everywhere do not think alike and do not share the same values. Lengthy stays and immersions in the culture and languages of five different countries ultimately made that observation axiomatic. So, I appreciate your disclosures. Knowing your background helps somewhat in understanding the positions that you have chosen to make and aids in my response.

It is clear that you "do not see the logic" of my arguments. That was the lament of many of my math students. It was not unusual for me to walk them through a logical argument one step at a time pausing at the end of each plank to ask if they understood it individually and to receive an honest answer of "yes". Then, it was also not unusual at the ultimate and logical end of this progression to hear a plaintive cry of "I still don't get it". For some, all of the facts and logic in creation remain unconvincing. There are barriers to the logical process both intellectual and cultural as I have alluded to above; but, some impediments are much darker and more sinister. Some simply refuse to enter in any logical process understanding that to do so will render their position untenable. That said, I also understand the diplomatic necessity of the appearance of neutrality; but, my friend that is precisely what you have not done here.

Two of your points belie even that appearance. The first is your characterization of the Israelis as having only "robbed banks and swindled people of their life savings" as if that were inferred in my argument. If anything the natural conclusion of my argument is that the Israelis bear no responsibility for their Arab problem whatsoever. I believe that it is just that: an Arab problem. Why do you think that I included the statistics of the Jewish refugees of 1948 that you so conveniently ignored? The Jews took care of their refugees. Why is it that the Arabs chose and continue to choose to ignore theirs? There is, after all, ample diplomatic precedent for a solution. You must surely be familiar with the work of your fellow diplomat and Nobel Peace Prize winner, Fridtjof Nansen. But the UN through UNRWA and a plethora of NGOs not only aggravate the problem rather than mitigate or solve it, work tirelessly to perpetuate it. I understand your convenient longing not to get too "loud" on any particular point, but please allow me this. Why does the number of Arab "refugees" now in Gaza alone exceed the total number of Arab refugees there were in 1948? In anticipation I pose this: My surname, if it were disclosed, would immediately identify me as a person of Dutch ancestry. Would you consider my claim on the estates of the ancestors of the Duke of Alba as suitable compensation for the "Massacre of the Innocents"? It is after all a heart rending scene that Bruegel has laid to canvas.

Secondly, the neutrality that you may or may not be trying to diplomatically maintain is betrayed by your application of moral equivalences. Juxtaposing the so-called Nakba with the Holocaust even tangentially demands a reaction that for diplomatic reasons I will not employ. It is sufficient to say that your choice of words clearly reveals an antipathy to one side rather than being evenhanded to the tired cliché of "both sides".

My assessment is that despite all of your talk of empathy "for the sake of their children" nothing will solve the problem until the Arab decides to stop picking the scab of indignation over having an independent Jewish next door. As I have demonstrated and you have chosen to ignore, a Palestinian State has been offered ad nauseam and declined ad hoc. If you are sincerely determined to work for a solution "for the sake of their children" then champion a diplomatic effort to stop the incitement of "Palestinian" children now rampant in UN schools and UNRWA facilities. When I see a positive move in this direction I will be persuaded that your "focus" is not just a myopic whimper.

In the spirit in which you have chosen to engage me I, too, wish you all the best.

P.S. Please pardon any typos. It is late.

doodahdaze  01/31/2009 06:18 PM Report

Mr. Hicks79, thank you for introducing yourself. I understand that you have been around for a long long year and I suspect you are a man of wealth and taste. <nervous smile>

But... Are you?... the devil?...

Are you Mick Jagger?

TomHicks79  01/31/2009 05:37 PM Report

William:

Thank you for taking the time to present your perspective.

I am an older man, long retired from a diplomatic career with posts in several parts of the world including Israel & Egypt. I am very well familiar with the issues presented below, and while I can debate the issues in great political & historical detail, I have decided in recent years to focus more on the human side of the conflict and leave the "loud" arguments to younger, more energetic audiences. <smile>

I have read both your posts carefully but with all due respect, I am not persuaded to change my mind. Here is why:

1. You start by saying "If you believe that the residents of Gaza are in such dire straits". Perhaps you typed this in a hurry because the raw facts from the UN, NGOs as well as the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics are irrefutable. Without going in detail, there are over 1 Million registered refugees in Gaza living in the highest population density on the planet with very high unemployment and poor living standards. While the term "dire straits" may mean different things to different people, try to look at it from the other side. If you and your family were living under those conditions for decades, how would you describe the situation?

2. You then present the Cairo slums and the Hama incident in order to make your final point that Israel "...dealt with their Arab problems...in an admirably humane manner."

I do not see the logic here. How do you go from point 1 to your conclusion simply because there are people in Cairo that live in equally poor conditions, or by citing the Hama massacre of 1982?

If my neighbour ran a gang that dealt drugs and killed people, while I "only" robbed banks and swindled people of their life savings, does that make me a good or better person?

Referring to the Arab population in Israel as the "Arab problems" is wrong. Most Arabs, like most Israelis, just want to go about a normal decent life and provide for their families as best they can.

As to the "admirably humane manner", I think you should reflect on this statement at least from a humanitarian point of view considering the very high civilian toll of Israel's recent action in Gaza. You can argue the political & military justification, but you cannot label the consequences as "admirably humane"!

Israel, which aligns itself with western values, should embark on a different path in dealing with the Palestinians. I have spoken with many Israelis and Palestinians over the years. Most are very passionate about their position and accuse the other of being incapable of understanding their side of the conflict. Israelis say that Palestinians cannot fathom the Holocaust impact, and Palestinians say Israel has been persecuting them since the 1948 Nakba. I can tell you that I have witnessed heated debates with raw emotions turn surprisingly positive when both sides showed some empathy to the other.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of a poor refugee in Gaza, and by the same token, I ask any Palestinian reading this to look at the issues from the Israeli side. The dehumanization of both sides must stop and a bridge of humanity must start taking shape. Each side must acknowledge to the other that "I have done you wrong", and at least for the sake of their children, look at each other, in peace, as human beings.

I hope you are not offended because I disagreed with you and wish you all the best.

TH.

tartufe  01/31/2009 03:42 PM Report

"The Israelis live in a difficult part of the world and I believe that they have dealt with their Arab problems in a manner not only far superior to how their Arab critics have dealt with them but in an admirably humane manner."

The admirably humane manner asserted before a month has passed on a 1300 killing spree by their Panzer tank divisions and SS storm troopers fire-bombing (even or especially children) with phosphorous shells.

Might makes right. An ephemeral ideology.

William  01/31/2009 01:09 PM Report

TomHicks79:

Because you appear to be amenable to persuasion I want to take a little more time to add some perspective to the situation in the Middle East.

If you believe that the residents of Gaza are in such dire straits, Google "Cairo's cities of the dead". Briefly there are five or so major cemeteries generally on the outskirts of Cairo. It has been the tradition for centuries of Egyptians able to afford it to bury their dead with small house like structures at the burial site. You see the mourning lasts for 40 days and the families of the deceased actually live there during that period. Now there are estimates that as many as five million poor Egyptians exist as squatters in these cemeteries living in abject squalor and filth because they have no other place to go. Many subsist as beggars and I could also relate anecdotes of some of these people having their own children's limbs hacked off in order to make them more pitiful thus more profitable at begging.

The second insight that I would offer is as well documented as the first and has to do with how the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot, was treated in Syria. You may Google the "Hama massacre" to corroborate what I am about to relate. In the early '80s the Muslim Brotherhood began an insurrection against the Syrian dictator Hafez al-Assad (the current dictator's father). It was centered in the town of Hama. Al-Assad was nearly killed in an assassination attempt and to make a long story short he ordered the town wiped out by surrounding it with field artillery and bombarding it to dust. Casualty estimates range from 10 to 40 thousand men, women and children. Needless to say the Muslim Brotherhood never again threatened the Syrian government.

Is it no wonder that the vast majority of the over 1.2 million Muslim Arabs citizens of Israel (over 77%) would prefer to remain as citizens of the Jewish State as opposed to living in ANY other country in the world? The Israelis live in a difficult part of the world and I believe that they have dealt with their Arab problems in a manner not only far superior to how their Arab critics have dealt with them but in an admirably humane manner.

doodahdaze  01/31/2009 12:54 PM Report

I just watched the interview,

They say Nixon would have been better suited as an FBI director than as a President. Well, by the same token, Jimmy Carter would have been better suited as a marriage counselor or some kind of social worker than as a President. The man's gullible ignorance is timelessly infinite... But he is a nice guy.

William  01/31/2009 10:08 AM Report

TomHicks79:

RE: "No people on earth deserve to live in refugee camps under poor living standards, poverty and having their freedom severely restricted."

I agree. It took me a minute to gather up the numbers, but again they are there for anyone to see. Take a look at this.

Approximate Jewish populations of Arab countries pre-1948 and now:

Aden

8,000 0

Bahrain

600 30

Yemen

55,000 200

Lebanon

20,000 30

Morocco

250,000 1,500

Syria

30,000 100

Iraq

150,000 40

Tunisia

105,000 1,500

Libya

30,000 0

Algeria

140,000 100

Egypt

80,000 100

Iran

100,000 25,000

What do you think happened to all of these Jewish refugees from Arab countries? Where are the camps holding these people and their descendants?

Further, Tom, I would suggest to you that the camps that you are concerned about are no different from (in fact they may be better than) any other Arab slum in any other Arab country except that these "refugees" have been living on UN handouts for 60 years. Is it possible that aside from the political considerations these folks may have a pretty good racket going here?

William  01/31/2009 09:31 AM Report

TomHicks79:

RE: "Give the Palestinians a realistic and contiguous state"

The Peel and Woodhead ("Partition") commissions of 1937 and 1938 considered various partition plans to solve the Palestine problem. The Twentieth Zionist Congress agreed in principle; however, the Arabs rejected all these proposals out of hand.

The United Nations approved a partition plan (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181) on November 29, 1947, dividing the country into two states, one Arab and one Jewish. The Jewish community accepted the plan but the Arab League and Arab Higher Committee rejected it and 5 Arab armies invaded.

After the June 1967 Six Day War, the heads of state from eight Arab countries attended a summit conference in Khartoum and adopted the now famous "Three NOs" with respect to Israel:

1. NO peace with Israel

2. NO recognition of Israel

3. NO negotiations with Israel

During the July 2000 Camp David Summit, Barak offered a comprehensive plan for the establishment of a Palestinian state, but Yasser Arafat rejected it.

So much for giving the Palestinians anything. Every time they are offered a state they reject it. Doesn't that seem even the least bit strange to you?

I don't know whether it's just laziness or what but the history of the area is there for anyone to see. Did the "occupation" cause the Nebi Musa riots in April of 1920? The Jaffa riots of May of 1921? The Hebron Massacre in 1929? Or, the 1936 Arab riots which were the first stage of the "Arab Revolt" lasting until 1939? Was it the "occupation" that caused Syria, Lebanon, Jordon, Iraq and Egypt to attack in May and June of 1948? What about Muslim pogroms against Spanish Jews in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066? What occupation caused them and the hundreds of other Muslim and Christian pogroms against Jews before the ones I just listed that happened in The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine after 1922?

With all due respect, Tom, I don't know what it's going to take for you to understand that "the root causes" of the conflict are simply living and breathing Jews anywhere on earth. The Arabs don't want peace, they want dead Jews. I know that "the person engaged in name calling" isn't very pleasant, but as a pretty fair student of history I defy you to find fault with his facts. It seems that "using reason and logic" at least as I understand it doesn't work and that you as reasonable and logical people may want to re-examine your conclusions in light of the facts.

doodahdaze  01/31/2009 08:23 AM Report

One of the primary responsibilities of a President is to motivate and uplift their people. Jimmy Carter failed miserably at that. Even though people go on and on about what a good decent man he is, he really is no better than anybody else, in that regard, except for maybe, the public's image of Richard Nixon, which I believe we collectively subconsciously compare him to. I remember watching his speeches as a teenager, and thinking, hell! If everything is that bad, why doesn't he just blow the whole damn thing up! And then came along Ronald Reagan, and basically said, No America! You do not have to apologize for having balls.

TomHicks79  01/31/2009 08:01 AM Report

President Carter's analysis is logical and reflects his fairness and decency as a human being. The conflict in the middle-east has become too complex to solve in way that gives all parties concerned all what they ask for. Compromises have to be made. 60 years have passed since the establishment of the state of Israel; there are new generations whose only memory is the revisionist history that both sides teach.

What cannot be denied are the core elements of the conflict. While Israel has grown strong and is now a nuclear power with an advanced standard of living, the consequences of their military occupation have been disastrous to generations of Palestinians. A pragmatic solution must look beyond the symptoms of the conflict and address the cause: Occupation.

No people on earth deserve to live in refugee camps under poor living standards, poverty and having their freedom severely restricted. Israel must do the right thing and move into a new stage of its existence, as South Africa did, by boldly and directly admitting that its coming into being had been at a steep cost that the Palestinians paid. Although it happened 60 years ago, it cannot and will not be forgotten. The occupation of the West Bank and the siege and border control of Gaza must end. Give the Palestinians a realistic and contiguous state, admit the wrongs of the past and thus eliminate the root causes of conflict.

To the person engaged in name calling in a couple of posts below, I offer a small advice: The tone and insulting manner of your post severely detracts your credibility especially when others are presenting substantiated arguments. Calm down and try using reason and logic without the insults.

Arnold  01/31/2009 01:24 AM Report

StonedRonin:

That pretty bold talk from someone with a room temperature IQ. Perhaps if you moved out of mum's flat and got off of the hashish hookah for a while, you could get a job and afford a spell checker. Then, when the fog clears you could at least make up your own material instead of copying Henry Siegman's. It has long been known that Siegman is bought and paid for by a consortium of anti-Jews including Saudi businessmen, Lebanese politicians, and for one at least one year, the Palestinian Authority.

As for Yedioth Ahronoth, how long have you been an expert in Hebrew or realpolitik nuances aside from bootlegging from Siegman? At any rate, the operable quote from Halevy on Hamas is "They’re not very pleasant people, but they are very, very credible." So, I believe their Charter and if you nudged your intelligence quotient upward a notch or two, so would you.

Now for Benny Morris, you are obviously not on the notification list as he is no longer the darling of the revisionist "New Historians". He is now persona non grata to your ilk. Here is one of his more recent pronouncements on Ben-Gurion:

"…if he was already engaged in expulsion, maybe he should have done a complete job. I know that this stuns the Arabs and the liberals and the politically correct types. But my feeling is that this place would be quieter and know less suffering if the matter had been resolved once and for all. If Ben-Gurion had carried out a large expulsion and cleaned the whole country - the whole Land of Israel, as far as the Jordan River. It may yet turn out that this was his fatal mistake. If he had carried out a full expulsion - rather than a partial one - he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations."

And please, Mr. Stoned, produce an entire copy of the booklet by Rabbi Arik Ascherman and we will see how controversial it really is. Quoting Maimonides as an inducement to commit war crimes is resplendently stupid and typical of the Londonistan press. I've not quite figured out whether the Brits lost their minds before they lost their country or vice versa.

Lastly, Your ignorance of history is stunning! In 1 AH the illiterate Arab barbarians burst out of the Hejaz in the vacuum of the defunct Roman Empire and motivated by newly found religious zeal began slaughtering and plundering indiscriminately from the Pyrénées to the Hindu Kush. They extracted the treasure and the vitality from every conquest and contributed nothing (oh, please don't bother me with the myth of "golden age" of Spain for I will eviscerate every syllable of it). Where they were not driven out they disintegrated into tribal anarchy and left nothing but the corrosive creed of a child molesting madman - Islam. And, some 1500 years later they largely remain illiterate Arab barbarians. Just look, even today throughout the world where Muslim and non-Muslim adjoin; in Bali, Bosnia, Chechnya, Darfur, India, Israel, the Maldives, Maluku, Nigeria, the Philippines and Thailand. There is bloodshed in each and I bet that I have missed some. And, this list does include those countries where Muslims are killing each other at a serious pace (just as the Hamas barbarians are slaughtering the Fatah barbarians in Gaza), but I’ve become so tired of these savages that I've come not to care too much about that aspect of their inherent violence and cruelty.

tartufe  01/31/2009 01:03 AM Report

Ya gotta love the chutzpah of the mind-bending logic after killing 1,250 civilians (400+ children), that we that are sickened, are somehow "apologists" for the victims??? Go figure.

Damn those people for living in a concentration-style ghetto. Damn them for not dying smokeless when fire-bombed. Damn them for wanting food, sewerage, water, power systems. Damn them for having the temerity to fire rockets in protest after nearly a half century of grinding poverty and humiliation.

Bad form. Whimpering bastards. Maybe the Israeli's should burn another 400+ children. If they were blameless the first time, their innocence will at least double. God will reward His people. Just ask them.

God, using Moses' cell phone, directed in one of a series of 10 directives: "Though shall not kill!"*

*Unless it involves Arabs, Goyim or any other apologists or children or babies or civilians that are specified for slaughter by the Israeli SS Storm Troopers. Slobbering, brutalized baby-burners are exempt by God, particularly when fighting for their God-given rights. Hail victory! Sieg Heil!

N.B.: This qualifying footnote is straight from the Torah.

LucyK  01/31/2009 12:04 AM Report

Forget religion for a moment and let's look at psychiatry: Humans fight for several reasons. Jealousy and sex are two motivators as is the greater threat of starving. The fighting for necessities such as food and water is a survival instinct.

Unless survival is at stake, fighting is most often initiated by a bully(Israel) in a show of cowardly strength against one who can't easily answer a bully back.

If life and limb are threatened, the bullied (although the weaker) responds fiercely with whatever resources at hand, in order to survive, which involves the right to eat and live peaceably without threat from others.

If one can not understand this simple equation, and one truly believes that a certain ethnic group was chosen by God, then there's no reasoning with the likes of such a mind.

Those who believe the oppression of the Palestinians is God's will are mentally imbalanced. They also do not believe that all men are created equal. Such brainwashing is unacceptable for intelligent people. The rest of us want to get on with the business of building a civilized world.

LoneRonin  01/30/2009 05:29 PM Report

In reply to Arnold

You are obviously well coached by your Hasbara minders... but not quite good enough!

The so called "translation" of the Hamas charter that you put up is flawed. This however is a moot point. Israel & its army of appologists, keep bombarding the media with these slogans such as "Hamas's charter is to destroy Israel". This is just rhetoric meant for the masses and shrewd Israeli leaders know very well that actual policy of Hamas is much more pragmatic than their ideology.

One of these Israelis leaders that understand the realpolitik nuances is the former head of Mossad and Sharon’s national security adviser, Ephraim Halevy. He wrote in Yedioth Ahronoth that "they know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their co-operation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: they will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.’ "

So please spare us your articial bombastic charade of fury and try to look beyond the headlines and do not confine your readings to right wing Hasbara papers and bloggres from the JDL.

by the way, you started your post by addressing it to "Muslim maniacs" and later to "Arabian cowards ". In my humble opinion, "maniac" and "coward" are just some of the attributes of a person that is clearly a racist in both the ethnic and religious sense. You generalize such that over 1 Billion human beings from all walks of life, are now guilty in your puritanical eyes of being "terrorists"!

You could do with some readings from History. No, I don't want you to read something that and Arab or a Moslem has written, God forbid such blasphemy... I will ask you to read what one of the most ardent Zionist "historian" supporter of Israel sais in his book "Righteous Victims". Benny Morris wrote: "material released by Israel’s Ministry of Defence showed that ‘there were far more Israeli acts of massacre than I had previously thought . . . In the months of April-May 1948, units of the Haganah were given operational orders that stated explicitly that they were to uproot the villagers, expel them, and destroy the villages themselves.’ In a number of Palestinian villages and towns the IDF carried out organised executions of civilians."

Did you miss that last sentence? It said "ORGANIZED EXECUTIONS OF CIVILIANS". From the early days of Israel until 2 weeks ago, executing civilians, including infants at close range, has been a regular action by your "moral" IDF thugs that are enthusiastically encouraged to kill everything in sight by senior religious Rabbis such as Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, head of the Jewish fundamentalist Ateret Cohanim seminary in Jerusalem. (see: http://tinyurl.com/djx37e)

Terrorists? Maniancs? Murderers? Idiots? Yes I agree with your words. Israel has morphed into the new Nazis of our age with all these attributes and war crime trials will get them sooner or later as they did Eichman in the past.

Israel Lies:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html

Arnold  01/30/2009 03:57 PM Report

To all of you apologists for the Muslim maniacs:

The principles of Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter. Here are some more highlights:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). [Al-Bannaa was Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood]

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying." ["The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" are a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery]

When you can get the Arabian cowards to stop shedding their uniforms and then hiding behind their own women and children then perhaps we can engage in a conversation about "humanity" and "Jesus". Until then you are no more than useful idiots flacking for the Islamic murderers and you have no more credibility than the authors and followers of the Hamas Charter, the founders of the Nazi-like Muslim Brotherhood and the anti-Semitic writers of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion".

tartufe  01/30/2009 03:52 PM Report

Ahhh Lucy. So disarming. So ingenuous. So ineffectual.

Religion(s) will end-it-all in an apocalyptic immolation with Israel the linchpin.

LucyK  01/30/2009 01:32 PM Report

The creation of Israel was mishandled, and executed unfairly. By the 21st century we should be advanced enough in civilization to be able to address this wrong which is now a fait accompli. We can't undo the past, but we can at least make the future more fair. Look at the Palestinians and remember, "But for the grace of God, go I."

In regard to this situation, all Christians should return to the teachings of Christ and ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?"

tartufe  01/30/2009 12:42 AM Report

Humanity? A refugee by any name is dead meat.

Definition of the settlements (plagierized from below): "We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more."

Nules  01/29/2009 11:06 PM Report

What is completely lost in much of this "conversation" are the facts of the matter in the words of the so-called Palestinians themselves.

Mahmud Abbas, a founding member of the PLO, commented (in Falastin a Thaura, March 1976) that: "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland, and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live."

On March 31, 1977, in the Dutch newspaper Trouw, Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein said: "The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

On the same day Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

So, the Arabs are responsible for the refugee problem that created a fictional people that are being used to destroy Israel. Have I missed something here?

William  01/29/2009 10:37 PM Report

Mein Kampf, the Qur’an, the Hamas Covenant and the Fatah Constitution are just words. The differences between the first and the latter three are twofold. First, the Jews are now fully capable of protecting themselves; and, secondly the Arabs are wholly inept compared the German. The similarities are singular: Any Arab attempt at the extermination of the Jews will end just like the German attempt - with their complete and utter defeat.

tartufe  01/29/2009 10:28 PM Report

More numbers. U.S. support to Israel in 2008 $2,4 billion, nearly 0.1% of the budget. Taxpayer anarchy of "honest mistakes," (a la our new Sec of Treas.) that just happens to be (at least) 0.1% less than due some might consider, but only a self-righteous prig would suggest that.

We're guilty of some heinous stuff. Burning and murdering over 400 children is to be taken in our natural stride, right? Israelis should remember fondly the napalmed naked Vietnamese girl, running, screaming. Israel is a perfect partner for us. Our history is full of preemptive wars.

Kind of a can you (Israel) top this. Millions in Vietnam, Cambodia, hundreds of thousands in Iraq, drooling longingly at Iran, Pakistan, yadda, yadda. (The M-I complex is an equal opportunity slaughter-for-profit oligarch.) Children? What's a few thousand here, a few thousand there. Sanitized with language as "collateral damage."

Ahhhh, now I feel better.

Damn kids anyway. Choosing the wrong damn parents is no excuse.

Turn this tank around, load the phosphorous shells, we'll teach the little bastards. Got the first school in cross-hairs now. FIRE!

tartufe  01/29/2009 09:48 PM Report

There's words (Art. 12?), and there's numbers (1300:1). Eradication? The numbers have it.

William  01/29/2009 08:37 PM Report

This fool Carter only aids the true goals and aspirations of the "Palestinian" people:

The Fatah Constitution

Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.

Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.

Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS)

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

mgm  01/29/2009 07:06 PM Report

Jimmy Carter was a worthless President and has been a worthless internation interloper. The US should rescind his passport as he has caused more damage by negotiating with known and recognized terrorist organizations by the international community that has placed thousands of people in harms way.

Arnold  01/29/2009 06:59 PM Report

tartufe:

Great screen name! Tartufe: a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives.

"Given the history of the attacks on Israel and the oppressiveness and aggressiveness of other countries in the Middle East and elsewhere, boycotting Israel indicated a moral blindness for which it is hard to find any explanation other than antisemitism."

- Steven Weinberg

tartufe  01/29/2009 04:33 PM Report

An apropos quote of the day:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

- Steven Weinberg

ShalomFreedman  01/29/2009 02:25 PM Report

Talkbacks seem to be a place where the Ignorant have unlimited opportunity to display their ignorance. The previous poster who goes by the 'name' wo101 is ignorant of the history of the Holy Land, of the Jewish people. The frequent complaint that the American communications-world allows only statements from pro- Israel people is absurd. Consider for instance the 'Charlie Rose' program. Almost everyone who appears on the show to discuss the Middle East criticizes Israel in one way or another. Most do this on the basis of 'settlements' the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria.(The West Bank) Among the other absurd claims of wo101 is that the British created the modern state of Israel. In fact when Partition ended the British were more favorable to the Arabs than to the Jews, though the Jews had important British supporters, most notably Orde Wingate. wo101 also seems to not know his Bible, that minor work of Literature created by the Jews in the land of Israel. Could there ever be a stronger claim for possession of a land than this book , one which has given so much to mankind as a whole? The Jewish historical connection to the Holy Land goes back over three- thousand five hundred years.

One more small note. Tonight it was reported that 'Hamas' murdered yet another Palestinian in Gaza who dared to speak out against them. These people are thugs and murderers. The Carter whitewash of them is once again, shameful.

wo101  01/29/2009 11:23 AM Report

President Carter is a rare American who will speak with some honesty. The rest into a stew of myths, white racism, imperial delusions, ignorance, etc. The US media is like the Ministry of Truth in Orwell's "1984", faithfully (frightened?) reciting Zionist propaganda. Compare Haaretz with the New York Times. Here's History 101:

The biggest problem for Americans and the West is ignorance of history: Israel is a colonial entity created by the British colonials (see Balfour Declaration) as a result of a European movement (Zionism, circa 1880's) supposedly for "a people with no land in a land with no people". Uganda was also considered as a Jewish homeland. Non-whites were regarded as sub-human. Israel was created by the UN when most members were European or quasi-European.( Can you imagine the vote today when the UN is actually representative of the human race?) The driver was European cruelty of the Jewish people over history. In this sense Israel has legitimacy, albeit located somewhere in Europe. (Part of Germany or Poland would be just)

To successfully grab a land requires killing all its people (Americas). Fighting back is a fundamental human right that cannot be taken away. In Israel's case, the Palestinians happen to be Muslim and Christian. Justice is a very important in Islam, and Muslims all over the world see the seizure of Palestine as a gross injustice. Resistance will be two-pronged.

The best scenario is a one-state solution. Both justice and forgiveness is important in Islam. (It worked after the horrors of the Crusades, South Africa). Events like Gaza make future forgiveness just more difficult.

I have to commend people like President Carter for their bravery. Charlie Rose also deserves credit for enabling an opinion that is virtually not heard, having been cowed and self-censored.

ShalomFreedman  01/29/2009 08:35 AM Report

I have re-watched the Carter interview and I am astounded at the snow-job and con- job it presents in covering up the truth of who and what 'Hamas' really is. Did former President Carter ever look at the vicious Anti- Semitic charter of 'Hamas'? Hasn't he ever listened to the repeated statements of their leaders that they will destroy Israel, and never concede to make Peace? Above all, hasn't he taken note of their shameful, cowardly and even Evil behavior in this most recent confrontation with Israel? They put arms and ammunition in mosques and schools. They wired up and booby- trapped private homes without notifying their owners of this. When the Israeli Army appeared the noble 'Hamas' fighters put on civilian clothes. They used their own women and children as shields, often confiscating supplies for themselves meant for the civilian population.

Is it any wonder that when they called for a Victory Demonstration after Israel withdrew from Gaza, almost nobody showed up.

For a former President of the United States to whitewash these evildoers is shameful.

ShalomFreedman  01/29/2009 08:29 AM Report

Dear Mr. Pung.

You are not simply wrong, you are also either ignorant or willfully malicious.

No one I know in Israel or America supports or advocates in any way 'extermination' of Palestinians. Anyone who advocated such a sentiment would be condemned immediately not only by the Media but by every major political figure both in Israel and in the United States. Israel is a democracy which cares for human rights and respects human life in a way none of its Arab and Islamic enemies do. If 'Hamas' hadn't used its citizens as human shields there would not have been the regrettable civilian casualties in Gaza that there were.