Charlie Rose

Liz  10/22/2008 06:46 PM Report

1) TFA is not perfect, but neither is the current public education system, the government, or the world- So violently attacking a small group of people who are working extremely hard to take steps in the right direction.

2) If I was a veteran teacher who sincerely cared about my students and had made significant progress over many years of service, only to find now that programs such as TFA are negatively affecting my job stability for various reasons, I would be p-o'd too. However, there are plenty of teachers and people in education administration who don't care about the kids, who don't really believe they can succeed, and who are interested only in career advancement. I know some of these people. Yes, there are many good teachers and many bad ones. The stats show that TFA corps members are overall good teachers, and 60% stay in teaching and education, so why is that a bad thing?

3)Stop blaming "white supremacy" for all the problems in education. I am not even white and I don't buy that. I grew up in a poor, minority community and in public schools, and I wish we would have had more TFA members as teachers.

If "white supremacy" is the hidden agenda behind TFA, then there sure are a lot of young, white corps members who sincerely care about students from low-income communities and are dedicating two years or more, even their lives, to the eradication of educational inequity. Doesn't sound like supremacy to me.

4) Criticism is important- It's good to look at what is lacking in any program and to make it better. Wendy Kopp may say what she says, but I think it's important to listen to what the teachers themselves have to say. I have several friends who did TFA. Many of them were not considering remaining in education when they began the program, but now they are committed to educational reform. All of them except one have said that this was the best thing they could have done, with no regrets- These are intelligent, socially conscious, and motivated people who could have excelled very in the business world, in a variety of more "prestigious" careers, but instead they chose to sacrifice of themselves to take the jobs that other teachers don't want. Their students have thrived, and we need more people like this in education, not less.

Does TFA have flaws? Is there a lack of support for corps members in certain regions? Does its idealogy need tweaking? Yes, yes, and yes. However, TFA is constantly reiterating that it is looking for people who can succeed in the most challenging situations, and that is why it is so selective. So for those of you who did TFA, or if your children did TFA, and quit- I just have to say that TFA makes it clear through every step of the process that the job is going to be extremely difficult. If you couldn't hang, then you weren't right for the job in the first place, and you should have chosen a different program to begin your teaching career. If you want the teaching to be "easier", then don't choose to teach in a low-income community- but don't blame TFA for it.

K  10/10/2008 07:54 AM Report

For an organization that meticulously collects data about its members and talks about measurable progress ad nauseam the inability of its leaders to speak concretely and specifically about how it succeeds is astounding. The comments by Ryan and others ring very true. (Props to Ryan for being a CITIZEN teacher) TFA has very eagerly carried the mantle of NCLB and top down school reform -- helping to develop the new language of the white power structure and the leadership class. This movement has given children longer school days, longer school years, less time outdoors for physical activity, less time for fine and performing arts.

TFA does very well at simultaneously ignoring the root socioeconomic and psychological barriers to educational success while marginalizing veteran teachers that have given their lives to service -- differentiating TFA corps members by disguising classism as meritocracy telling us how hard the TFA teacher works by comparison.

Its always strange to hear Wendy Kopp talk about poverty. She refuses to acknowledge it as a root cause of educational inequality. She runs away from it when Charlie Rose asks about poverty as a more essential question than the achievement gap saying more or less we can help kids perform well in school and escape to college but we can't improve the community. She needs poverty. Like other white leaders, she needs class inequality to leverage her position. This is what you have, this is what we have. If you act like us you can have what we have and rebuild your ghetto in our image. Its based on white supremacy. Teach for America is only possible because it has used high poverty minority populations and schools as a low-rent training facility for grooming the leadership class. I hope teaching minority kids doesn't ever enter the political debate like military service has -- both signs of power and defeating the Other, disguised as patriotic service and humanitarianism.

Teaching as leadership or teaching as CITIZENSHIP?

Jen Sauer  08/14/2008 10:40 AM Report

We have failed working class students and students of color, but the answer is not to sell out what the public owns (public education) to private interest groups like charter schools, the Bill and Gates Foundation, and more. The public school system has been left to fail as politicians defund the schools and corporations magically "save" our schools with funding. Why were our schools not funded in the first place? The further we fragment public schools, the more we lose what little control of the schools we have in the first place. It is time we had a discussion about the onslaught of privatization in public education on Charlie Rose.

https://www.student.gsu.edu/~jsauer2/teachers/Teachersforsocialchange_index.htm

Chris Tucker  08/12/2008 01:30 PM Report

I think Bob Wise is correct about the lack of investment for our middle schoolers, but I believe it goes far beyond financial investment. We play games and appeal to all the various learning styles during the elementary years, then throw textbooks and long lectures at them in middle school, and then say that they stop learning during these years because they get interested in the opposite sex. Wrong. I've been teaching teens and tweens for many years (in alternative settings to public school) and they're just as eager to learn as first graders if you give them a chance! It takes them a split second to recognize a teacher who feels like they're there to babysit them, and just another second to write-off the class and then the subject. However, the STRUCTURE of most middle schools don't give the teachers the support, instruction, and flexibility they need to help make a difference. Okay-enough here. If you're interested in more down this path, read www.playfulpens.com/Chris/teaching.html Other ideas on how we can keep motivated during those years between elementary education and high school, please contact me via that web page!

Ryan  08/07/2008 11:19 AM Report

In an interview to work at the Teach for America summer institute, I was asked to describe my most successful classroom experience. I described an multi-disciplinary photography/art/community project that crossed all subject areas and got students out of the classroom. The project was brilliant and many of my students excelled. Then, the TFA individual interviewing me said...no...but what did you do that was truly "successful" in terms of test scores and measurable results. Teach for America's idea of success is linked to NCLB and standardized testing/assessment. Wendy Kopp and Barbara Bush are good friends. So, we need to evaluate how TFA is defining success, what values are being imposed on teachers in training, and how TFA priviliges certain knowledge in the classroom. Why does TFA feel empowering? TFA wines and dines it corps members on college campuses and then claims it is devoted to social justice education. Is that going to close the achievement gap?

Shannon Schunicht  07/30/2008 02:44 PM Report

The following narrative has been printed in several WORLDLY renown books, and spoken at AAPT (American Association of physics Teachers) conventions.

While in the Army, Mr. Schunicht was involved in a mid-air collision rendering him unconscious for three weeks. Everything had to be relearned, as nursing actions were reported as having been displayed upon awakening from the extended unconsciousness (19 days). Studies in recovery brought about some pragmatic discoveries to compensate for the residual memory deficits. The most valuable was having each vowel represent a mathematical operation, i.e. "a" multiplication implying "@", "o" for division implying "over", "i" for subtraction implying "minus", "u" for addition implying "plus", and "e" implying "equals". Most constants and variables are indeed consonants, e.g. "c" = "speed of light", and "z" = "altitude"

With this technique, ANY FORMULA may be algebraically manipulated into a word/series for ease of recollection. Additional letters may be added to enhance the "letter combinations" intelligibility, but these additional letters need be only consonants!

"Yes, I build rabbits 4 cats on 2 hats"

is a mnemonic for the Quadratic equation!`

remember"y= -b+_ root bb- 4ca over 2a"

Michael Maser  07/23/2008 12:19 PM Report

Hello, I'd like to point out something that I believe must inform any contemporary discussion on education yet seems to almost totally absent from this interview and subsequent discussion. Namely, that teaching, per se, as it is understood (worldwide) represents a culture with specific practices and assumptions, is highly mis-aligned with human psychology, and especially the psychology that is aligned with optimal learning. I am in no way dismissing the cultural factors referred to in this discussion thread that clearly impinge on a child's ability to safely attend school, but learning is much much broader than conventional teaching and schooling. To me, the obvious answer to the question "Why aren't schools better?" is because they consistently ignore or abuse practices associated with optimal learning, which comes from an entirely different planet than conventional K-12 education. Optimal learning is informed by Multiple Intelligences, holistic learning, knowledge of how learning actually works in our bodies and especially the human brain, professional coaching, and much more. Optimal learning practices reflect recent insights into neuro-biology (AKA 'brain-based learning') and practices of (effective) collaborative learning environments (much of which is emerging online). And I'm sorry, but asking career teachers to solve the many problems of conventional education is ultimately counter-productive because 1. these teachers have very limited knowledge of optimal learning and its practices, and 2. they are working within a system (schooling) that cannot be re-jigged to magically become an optimal learning environment; almost nothing is set-up in conventional schooling to support optimal learning: it is an industrial model designed to do what it does. Charlie, to me the vital follow-up question to pose is "how can optimal learning be nurtured among our children and youth", and I would advise you to solicit responses from neuro-biologists, learning specialists, philosophers, professional coaches, corporate human resource specialists, and children and youth. In my experience, career teachers - despite their good intentions - just don't have the training or intellectual bandwidth to address this question. And it sure isn't being significantly addressed in teacher-training colleges, by most teacher unions, or by educational bureaucracies. Who am I? I was a conventional classroom teacher for several years before quitting in massive frustration with a system that I perceived was predominantly anti-learning, and went on to co-create a highly successful alternative learning community for teens in Vancouver BC, Canada ('Virtual High'); most recently I co-founded and work as a director for 'SelfDesign Learning Community', an innovative (and government-certified) learning program in the province of BC; two years ago I received a Prime Ministers Award for (ironically) Teaching Excellence (in Canada) though I am much more a practitioner of nurturing learning than I am a teacher. And I think that nurturing Optimal Learning is where the brightest future in education is to be found. Cheers, Michael Maser (www.selfdesign.org)

M Petrof  07/14/2008 05:32 PM Report

TFA - great preparation for new teachers. Regular teacher training is a almost total waste of time. University courses are worthless and California's new teacher induction program (BITSA) is garbage - teachers mentoring teachers is what works. All the paperwork is wasted.

liberalrob  07/14/2008 02:24 PM Report

Mr. C sez:

<blockquote>I think the problem with the whole system is excuse-making from legislators to teachers who have no faith in the potential of low-income students.</blockquote>

I think the problem with the whole system is that it treats kids as widgets to be turned out; grades k-12 are just different stages on the assembly line, and just like you can run QA tests on widgets to make sure they meet some set of standards, you can run tests on kids and see if they meet a standard. I don't believe that's possible, never mind believe that that's a good way to go about education. If a widget doesn't meet standards, it can be sent back through whatever stage of the assembly process led to the failure (or more likely, simply be discarded or sold at a discount as a "factory second"). If a child doesn't meet standards, is it good policy to keep sending them back until they do meet the standard? More importantly, is that even what actually happens, today? Isn't it in fact more likely that underperforming students will be passed along to the next stage anyway, perhaps flagged for "special needs" or "special education?"

I've read Somerby's series of essays on this interview; I haven't watched the interview itself, which I intend to do now. But the fact that Wendy Kopp came up with this great idea AT AGE 23 in 1980 (the dawn of the Reagan Revolution era and the "me" decade of the 1980's) and subsequently has turned her idea into "a nationwide organization that boasts more than 5,000 member teachers" and which garnered her "a salary of $250,736 in 2005" just screams "RED ALERT! GREED IS GOOD!" to me. Is TFA really a revolutionary program that will transform education, or is it just revolutionary in its ability to line its founder's pocket?

Cana  07/13/2008 04:32 PM Report

I think that to be a leader in education need to realize that we are in the gloable society now.

<a href="http://www.parents-kidz.com">http://www.parents-kidz.com</a>

Cana  07/11/2008 02:12 AM Report

When we think about education, we need think from globalization view.

<a href="http://www.parents-kidz.com">http://www.parents-kidz.com</a>

Fred Mullen  07/10/2008 06:06 PM Report

Check out Bob Somerby's Daily Howler series on this dreadful interview (www.dailyhowler.com):

Special report: Worst ever?

PART 1—JUST STUNNINGLY BAD: To his credit, Charlie Rose asked Wendy Kopp an obvious question. By our count, he asked it five times.

On July 1, Rose interviewed Kopp, founder and CEO of Teach for America, for roughly forty minutes. Kopp has run TFA for the past nineteen years, to major acclaim; indeed, Time magazine named her one of the “hundred most influential people in the world” in its May 12 issue. In 1989, while a senior at Princeton, Kopp had a wild idea, Time said—a wild idea “that turned out to be a very good thing for millions of kids.” A professor called her “deranged,” Time said. But that was then—and this is Kopp now:

TIME MAGAZINE (5/12/08): The wild idea Kopp, now 40, had was to launch a U.S. national teaching corps, similar to President Kennedy’s Peace Corps, that would recruit young teachers straight out of college and sign them up for a two-year hitch working in some of the country's more disadvantaged schools...

In 1990, Kopp, then 23, raised $2.5 million to get her teaching corps started. From that beginning came Teach for America, a nationwide organization that today boasts more than 5,000 member teachers, who work in communities all over the country and reach 440,000 kids. Some 12,000 veterans of Teach for America have continued their teaching careers, often providing leadership for troubled schools in their own communities. A 2005 study showed that 75 percent of school principals consider Teach for America teachers more effective than other teachers, and a 2004 study showed Teach for America students do better than other kids in math. Deranged or not, Kopp's idea is working—and as a result, more kids are learning.

That account of the studies is profoundly selective—but we’ll discuss that in Part 3 of this series. For today, let’s just say this: Among our corporate and journalistic elites, Kopp is considered a very big deal. That’s why Rose’s question, asked early on, was so perfectly sensible:

ROSE (7/1/08): OK, you’ve given a lot of thought to this. We talk about it a lot, this program and other programs. Here’s what I want to know: What do we need to do to make better schools?

“What do we need to do to make better schools?” The question was sensible—obvious, even. In Part 4 of this series, we’ll look at the remarkable answers Kopp gave to this obvious question—to a question Rose had to ask again and again and again. For today, we’ll only say this: You’d certainly think a person like Kopp would have a lot to say to that question. But Kopp seemed to have very little to say—so little that this session struck us as perhaps the worst interview ever. Kopp seemed to have virtually nothing to say about the topic on which she’s considered an expert. And as she fumbled, flailed and killed time, her interviewer failed to challenge her in the most obvious ways. What do the studies say about the success of Teach for America? Like most people who interview Kopp, Rose seemed to know that he mustn’t ask. But then, Kopp has long been a darling of upscale elites—and under our broken-souled modern regimes, such darlings get this sort of treatment.

For ourselves, our fascination with this interview began about half-way in. We turned on the TV—and there was Kopp! Within moments, she was explaining what her program’s alumni have learned about low-income schools. Why do our low-income schools struggle so? The public thinks one thing, Kopp explained. Her program’s alumni think another.

What is wrong with our low-income schools? Kopp described a Gallup poll which asked the two groups to answer that question. Shown a list of twenty answers, respondents were asked to pick three:

KOPP (7/1/08): There’s a Gallup Poll, actually, that asks the public why we have low educational outcomes in low-income communities and gives the public 20 options. And the top three answers the public gives are number one, lack of student motivation; number two, lack of parental involvement; and number three, home-life issues.

So we ask our teachers at the end of their two years the same exact question with the same 20 options. Their answers could not be more different: teacher quality; principal quality; and expectations for kids—academic expectations for kids. So, you know, it’s fascinating, right? Because our people, after two years of working with the kids and the families, come out of this knowing it’s not lack of student motivation. It’s not lack of parental involvement. It’s actually us. We can solve this problem. I think that’s the fundamental difference.

Why do our low-income schools struggle so? The public picked three reasons off Gallup’s list—and TFA alumni picked three others. But as we watched, we were struck by a single word in Kopp’s statement. The word we were struck by was this word: Knowing. TFA alumni “come out of this knowing” what’s causing the problem, Kopp told Rose.

Fascinating! After spending two years in low-income schools, Kopp’s teachers know what the problem is. They know it isn’t lack of student motivation. They know it isn’t parental involvement—or, presumably, “home-life issues.” Kopp didn’t say they “believe” these things; she stressed the fact that they “come out knowing.” What do our low-income schools struggle so? Because the question is so important, let’s scan those two lists again:

What the public thinks is the problem:

1) Lack of student motivation

2) Lack of parental involvement

3) “Home-life issues”

What TFA alumni think is the problem:

1) Teacher quality

2) Principal quality

3) Academic expectations for kids

The public thinks one thing; the alums think another. But according to the confident Kopp, the alumni “know” they’re right.

We were very struck by that statement. We ourselves spent more than a decade in low-income schools; our answer to that important question would be different from both those groups. (If we had to make a choice, we’d tilt toward the public’s list, much more strongly.) Why do our low-income schools suffer so? We wouldn’t say we know the answer. But if we had to list three reasons, we would go with these:

What we think is the problem:

1) Low-income kids are way “behind” on the day they first enter school. (See THE DAILY HOWLER, 11/29/06.)

2) At those schools, instructional programs and materials are designed for a different population. (See THE DAILY HOWLER, 9/1/05.)

3) For forty years, the Roses, the Kopps and the Time magazines have churned an unhelpful discussion.

Our basic idea of what is wrong would differ from both those groups. But we were so struck by Kopp’s confident tone that we went back and watched the whole program—and we’re not sure we’ve ever seen an interview quite that awful. Rose rolled over and died throughout, refusing to challenge Kopp’s claims and statistics—and ignoring the studies which suggest that her program hasn’t been the huge big deal described in that fawning Time profile. Kopp, meanwhile, was stunningly bad. After nineteen years as an education guru, you’d think she’d have something to say to Rose’s question. Once again, here it is, the most obvious question on earth:

ROSE: Here’s what I want to know: What do we need to do to make better schools?

Rose asked that question again and again. Kopp seemed expert at one thing—she seemed expert at refusing to answer.

We’re not sure we’ve ever seen an interview as bad as this. How broken are our intellectual elites? Rose rolled over—refused to perform. Kopp seemed like a music man.

TOMORROW—PART 2: Accepting the anecdotes.

Monday—part 3: Avoiding the studies.

Tuesday—part 4: Gruesome answers.

Lamb Cannon  07/09/2008 07:56 PM Report

What a load of tiresome old crap. No wonder our country is in deep poo with self-aggrandizing drivel like this--weak sophistry signifying zilch, pointless and sleep-inducing even for a Charlie Rose interview, which is saying a hell of a lot.

Mr. C.  07/09/2008 07:23 PM Report

I have to say, I think we have a lot of armchair quarterbacks here. In the interest of full disclosure, I have just finished my two year commitment to Teach for America in Connecticut. I have to say, even in a state that is supposedly the gold standard of education in this country, the total disorganization and excuse-making culture is truly remarkable. In my two years, I was able to push my middle school students in a Title I school that has NEVER made significant growth (since NCLB, it has never made adequate yearly progress or "safe harbor"), yet my 8th graders achieved remarkable results. My students finished 2nd in the entire city of New Haven, right behind a school largely populated by the children of Yale professors. In my first year, no one else in my hall produced similar results. The common utterance for such failure to demonstrate success is "these kids can't learn/behave" or "where are the parents?" But yet, with the same students, in the same conditions, on a standardized city-wide test, my students still outperformed theirs remarkably despite coming in with no knowledge of even basic aspects of my content area (they tested across all homerooms at a 17% mastery average at the beginning of the year).

I think the problem with the whole system is excuse-making from legislators to teachers who have no faith in the potential of low-income students. This is not to say that there are no great teachers or administrators in urban education, there are and I have had the pleasure of working alongside some of them. But in my experience it is the GREAT administrators and teachers - the ones who routinely produce high levels of student achievement - who embrace TfA's results-driven mentality. And it is the POOR administrators and teaches who embrace the excuse-making mentality that TfA shuns. Teach for America's methodical and rigorous teacher training program routinely turns recent college graduates that are rated as being "equal to or better than" other beginning teachers according to an independent study. In addition, the Urban Institute recently published a report that Teach for America teachers were "more effective than veteran teachers" in North Carolina and that TfA Math Teachers were up to "3 times as effective" than veteran teachers. Whatever your opinion on us "starry-eyed idealists" the bottom line being student achievement, we produce despite incredible circumstances.

The most successful urban schools in our country are clogged with TfA alumni. From KIPP (founded by TfA alums) to Boston Collegiate to Amistad/Achievement First (whose 98% free and reduced lunch students outperform Greenwich, CT) to Uncommon Schools to Green Dot. All are full of Teach for America alumni. 60% of us choose to stay on after our two year commitment. As someone who had never considered education before TfA, I can say with great confidence that at the very least it's making education attractive to those who would otherwise be qualified to run divisions of large companies. And at the most, we are building a network of individuals who share a common experience and commitment to the cause of equal public education for all.

Alabama Blue Dot  07/09/2008 09:39 AM Report

Teach for America is a great program for the school systems, but for the young people entering the program, all bright-eyed and ready to work, it can turn into a nightmare. They are expected to work for no pay for an entire summer, and many are not prepared for that. My daughter is considering Teach for America, but a friend of hers who just entered the program is having so many problems that she is ready to give up. This is especially because she has no money, no time to look for housing or even a part time job, and no response from the TFA bureaucracy. I don't want to discourage my daughter, but it does not make TFA look very good.

maria  07/08/2008 02:58 PM Report

Wasn't Teach for America founded in 1989?

I'm waiting for those great changes by the Teach for America ex-members.

They don't seem to have happened yet.

Gene Pugh  07/07/2008 04:55 PM Report

What Kopp should have said is, in the traditional methods used in most of our schools, student motivation, family environment, neighborhood environment. etc. influence a student's success. But in the environment TFA is trying to create (e.g., extremely motivated teachers), those factors do not influence a student's success.

Mike  07/07/2008 01:27 PM Report

I think a lot of people missed the point Kopp is making here. She is not saying that the family or other factors doesn't play a role in education. She is saying that teacher's should focus on the things that are within their realm of control, instead of things that they can use as an excuse for failure. If TFA teacher's are getting results that other teachers are not getting that makes perfect sense to me. If you are CHOOSING to work for substantially less than you are otherwise capable of earning to spend two years in a classroom under suboptimal conditions, then, in general, you are probably extremely motivated to do this work. It seems like this program also offers the opportunity for someone who might not want to spend their entire life as a K-12 teacher an invaluable glimpse into that world and the problems these teachers are faced with. This could be useful for general awareness and promoting change.

TFA Dad  07/05/2008 08:16 PM Report

My daughter worked for TFA last year and was sent to an inner city school to teach 9th grade English. She taught five classes, two of which were special ed kids who read at a 2nd to 4th grade levels. The special ed kids taunted and threatened her for several months. There was supposed to be a certified special ed teacher in her classroom, but that teacher quit after the first month because she had been threatened. When my daughter sent them to the office, the office sent the students back to the classroom ten minutes later. When she passed out assignments, the kids crumpled up the papers and told her F*** Y**. The kids walked in and out of her classroom and attended one or two classes a week.

Every day of the first month of school, her classrooms were changed. She had 30 kids in a classroom with 15 chairs. In another class, they gave her a computer room with desks facing the wall.

My daughter talked with her TFA mentor and said she was at her wits end and asked her for ideas on how to improve the situation. Her TFA mentor told my daughter, "I know what you have to do, but I'm not going to tell you because you need to figure it out for yourself."

After three months, my daughter was confronted and threatend and ultimately broke down in tears and ran for her safety. That's when my daughter quit. She was the 8th of 16 TFA teachers to quit that school district. Another teacher quit the next month.

Unfortunately, the kids in her other three classes were doing great. All A's and Bs. They are the real losers. But the two classes where she was threatened and confronted did her in. In the end, much of the blame should fall on the administration at her high school. How can they permit students to threaten teachers and send them back in the classroom? They chose to ignore her converns.

But TFA must share the blame because they are more concerned with numbers and statistics of how many teachers they send to so many schools. When eight teachers quit after the first few months for safety reasons, you should take a second look at the schools you're choosing.

Kopp's inability to explain their teaching methods shows she's more concerned with positive PR spin than making a difference. Kopp spends her time telling a story about a single successful 4th grade teacher while ignoring all of the well-intentioned graduates who were abandoned and failed. Yet, when my daughter asked a TFA rep for help, she received no advice.

These idealistic students from great schools who were leaders in their classes chose to forego lucrative jobs to make a difference in TFA and were ill-prepared for the dangers and challenges they faced. Kopp is living in a dreamworld and my daughter's experience was a nightmare.

TFA may have some success stories but there are just as many failure stories that are not mentioned and ignored by the Karen Salernos and Wendy Kopps.

Prof. Seeman  07/05/2008 12:04 PM Report

You make some good points above.

However, I also think that this can be helpful to you:

Go to: http://www.panix.com/~pro-ed/

If you get this book and video: PREVENTING Classroom Discipline Problems, [they are in many libraries, so you don't have to buy them\ email me and I can refer you to the sections of the book and the video [that demonstrates the effective vs. the ineffective teacher\ that can help you.

[I also teach an online course on these issues that may be helpful to you at:

www.ClassroomManagementOnline.com \

If you cannot get the book or video, email me and I will try to help.

Best regards,

Howard

Howard Seeman, Ph.D.

Professor Emeritus,

City Univ. of New York

Dayle Mazzarella  07/05/2008 01:19 AM Report

The heart and soul of education is the family and the teacher. In an ideal world both play an important role. Too often the family, regardless of socio-economic position, has abdicated responsibility to the teacher. What a teacher does in a classroom is the single most important variable in a child’s success in school . A teacher needs to understand classroom management, the process of discipline and motivation, and how the human brain works. The teacher then needs to apply this knowledge to a series of well thought out lesson plans that cumulatively represent a curriculum. Only a high degree of specific and comprehensive teacher training makes this a likely outcome.

In Oceanside, CA, we have trained our high school teachers to be just such educators. The results have been spectacular. We have, at least in part, been the subject of Jay Matthews’ (Washingtonpost.com, May 15, 2007) review of Peter Sacks’ book Tearing Down The Gates … . In Chapter 10, Mr. Sacks chronicles our success with a VERY under-privileged student body. While Mr. Sacks doesn’t mention Dr. Fred Jones in his chapter, it should be noted that Tools For Teaching by Dr. Jones was the primary resource for our teacher trainings and BY FAR the single biggest factor in our turn around. His is the only truly comprehensive teacher training program that teaches teachers to manage a classroom, minimize and then extinguish unacceptable behavior, motivate students with little apparent interest in school, and then TEACH them the content they need to succeed. I have been teaching for 34 years. In that period of time, despite continuous investigation, I have found nothing to compare to it.

With the pedagogy learned from Dr. Jones, second language learners and Special Education students have passed AP exams. Our Geometry Department went from 5 Advanced scores on the State exam to over 50. At Oceanside High’s sister school, El Camino High School, the Social Studies Department, by itself, produces 300 AP scores of 3 or better on a yearly basis, a phenomenal accomplishment given that El Camino High is also a Title I school. All of these teachers were trained using Tools For Teaching .

I could give you literally dozens of group and individual statistics and testimonials to specifically support my belief that if a school trains its teachers ,and provides adequate follow-up and support, with Tools For Teaching, it will need to do very little else to improve the state of education in America.

If Charlie Rose wants to interview a person who has first-hand knowledge of how learning takes place, and how schools can be changed, he should invite Dr. Fred Jones to be on his show. Dr. Jones has trained hundreds of experienced, successful teachers (both elementary and secondary) who could answer questions as well. I can guarantee that when Mr. Rose asks a question, he will get a very specific and very clear answer.

Check out Tools for Teaching at www.fredjones.com. If you want additional data on Oceanside high schools, contact me at emailmazz@yahoo.com.

Melody Highlen  07/04/2008 05:55 PM Report

Linda Carpenter has shared advice that should be heeded regarding what is available for teachers, and their administrators, to bring quality instruction and classroom management to their classrooms and schools. When Dr. Jones speaks to teachers, they know immediately that he has been in classrooms just like theirs. He knows how students learn, how students behave (and why), and what teachers can do to assure that time spent in the classroom is time spent for the purpose of education. Turnaround in classroom behavior and time on task happens predictably and quickly when teachers implement the insights gained from studying Dr. Jones’ Tools for Teaching. When seeking positive classroom discipline strategies to share with the classroom teachers I mentored, I was fortunate to attend Dr. Jones’ workshop in 1993. I personally used what I had learned and saw immediate results with students who had long been ‘winning’ the game of control and pushing teachers’ buttons while disrupting the learning process. I urge you to invite Dr. Jones to be your guest before summer is over and a new school year begins.

woodlass  07/04/2008 12:32 PM Report

Friendly warning to users of this list: It's possible that if you select any of these comments to save them somewhere on your own computer, your mouse will inadvertently cause an Abuse form to get reported (see the lower right corner of each comment). Be sure to select up to but not including that nasty little hot spot.

woodlass  07/04/2008 09:48 AM Report

Noel, I forgot to agree with you on how dismissive this website is, esp. with all the thoughtful comments. NEW PARAGRAPH: And one more thing. I had the chance to hear Kopp again, yesterday on NPR radio, where they were broadcasting an education discussion from the Aspen Ideas Festival. The other panel members were Margaret Spellings and Eli Broad. As to Kopp, more of same: highly polished blather, without substance or erudition. On a google search I found other presenters also included Charlie Rose. Perhaps this explains his giving up trying to get answers from her. Another collaborator on the take.

woodlass  07/04/2008 09:42 AM Report

I never read anything from a TFA Dad before, so thank you so much for taking the trouble. As a veteran teacher, I have often thought that the grad-student teachers they're putting into our classrooms in such numbers are in some ways our "kids" as well, and they need much more than what they've been getting. (That's not to say that in some schools, they do get a friendlier, almost red-carpet treatment.) It is so good to hear from a parent of one of these new teachers. NEW PARAGRAPH: I'd like to respond to your comment: "When eight teachers quit after the first few months for safety reasons, you should take a second look at the schools you're choosing." Even if TFA were to choose a different set of schools, NYC would still have to educate all the difficult and lower functioning children in the city. All the statistics, new-fangled programs, restructuring and juggling of school populations is not going to make that happen. What will get this sorted out is politically unacceptable to elected officials: considerably smaller class sizes and considerable additional services (guidance, health, social services, etc.), way more than legislators are ever going to fund. People who choose teaching as their ultimate profession know this from the start, and they do the best they can. It's the charlatans like Kopp and Broad, and corporate chancellors like Klein and Rhee, who design, re-design, and sell faulty products, manipulate the stats, and scapegoat the workforce when kids don't succeed very well.

uoha  07/03/2008 08:35 PM Report

Raising education levels does of course have obstacles. But having caring teachers who have high expectations of students can help to encourage success. There are challenges, and they should be taken into account and addressed. But they cannot be made into excuses. Let's stop putting so much stock into entertainment/movie stars, athletes, etc. and put more of that money into providing up to date materials in the classroom.

rosanne  07/03/2008 03:30 PM Report

To Bill at 12:40

I think that they made a very good choice in not selecting you.

Andrew  07/03/2008 01:00 PM Report

The problem with this interview starts the second Kopp opens her mouth. When asked a simple question: why are the schools so bad, Kopp simply restates Rose's question by providing stats on how bad the schools are. She never once answers the question.

But, let's analyze the response she provides. Kopp falls into the same psuedo-intellectual trap like most policy makers. She simplifies the issues by discussing the two extremes: poor children vs. rich children. Though there are 13 million children below the poverty line not receiving adequate education, there are at least three times that many above the poverty line receiving the same inadequate education. The larger travesty is that the parents of these children are working class and middle class members of society. They are the backbone of our economy and are paying a large portion of their salary to taxes for substandard education. These parents usually have post-HS educations and STILL their children are way behind academically.

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Why is this important? People like Kopp want to focus on low-income families because it is a big flashy number but in reality it is a small representation of students receiving a sub par education. In addition, when small gains are made within low-income schools, it is easy to magnify them because the expectations are so low to begin with. We don't want to shine light on middle class families who are not receiving an adequate education because these families are struggling to achieve the American Dream. A true recognition of their educational struggles would unveil a political and social structure that is not for the working but for the wealthy. In essence it would work in direct opposition with the American image and unravel the huge deception that life in America is perfect.

Bill  07/03/2008 12:40 PM Report

It was interesting that Houston, Texas played such an important part in this Texas. In 1990, I retired from a national science agency and applied with the Houston Independent School District(HISD) to be an Alternative Certified Teacher. Not only did I have an extensive background in Science, a degree in Mathematics, 4 children in an adjoining school district, and had previous experience in college as a HISD substitute teacher and was very enthused about teaching but I had had wonderful experiences in teaching young children mathematics. I did extremely well on the alternative certification exams and had a great interview( I believed) with the HISD interviewer. In other words, I qualified in every respect and I had knowledge and experience in the very areas that we have heard for years that the schools were needing. Yet, I was not selected.

I had even sent a letter at the time to the HISD Superintendent who later became President Bush's Secretary of Education. He did send me a letter that I should reapply but I never did because frankly, I had by then become somewhat bitter and had no faith in HISD as a useful conduit to teaching children. I began to view HISD as a union and nothing more.

Looking back, perhaps I should have pursued it further, as I realize what a mess education in this country has become. Education has become about teachers and not students. What a shame. I hope that efforts like Teach America can help throw out the unionized dead wood.

Lynn E.  07/03/2008 11:04 AM Report

After yesterdays show, I went to the web sites of Wendy Kopp and Bob Wise. I am thankful that they are speaking out about the education issues. Recently a close friend of mine died. She was a teacher 40 years. She was truely a teacher of excellence. All races, income levels, and people were influenced by her. She taught grade school, middle school, and high school. She eventually received her PhD after 18 years of school. It started with a care and concern for the children and teens she was teaching.

These two guests are also caring and have a concern for our children. For those that left negative comments I ask,"do you have children?" If you do not, then you obviously do not understand these issues. The other question I have is this-Where are you as parents? There are a lot of parents that complain about the education system, but spend less than 30 minutes with your children. Statistics show that parents are so busy working that children fend for themselves after and before school. 30 minutes of time does not help influence a child to be a good parent or person later on in life.

Many teachers are becoming the parent "stand in" because the parents lack the time, effort and ability to raise their own children.For those parents that do spend the time with their children, and I'm talking quality and quantity time-GREAT JOB.

For the minorities out there, you have the ability to do a great job too, but too many are complaining and asking for handouts. Start by helping your children and family, and you will see great results-it's not about white supremacy, it's about our childrens future.

I agree with both these guests, and I appreciate the changes, for better, that our children can have in a well rounded and balanced education. I do have children and I am of european haritage. My family worked and helped change not only their lives, but helped those around them. They came to this country with nothing. This country gave them nothing, but the ability to work and achieve. They did just that.

I enjoyed the book by Bob Wise. It helped me to help others in a better way.

Linda Carpenter  07/03/2008 10:56 AM Report

To improve education, you must improve what happens in each classroom. You have to do more than have enthusiasm and love for children. Charlie Rose, Dr Fred Jones should be a guest immediately. Go to Education World online to read his articles. If you had given him an hour, all of your questions and more would be answered with his Tools For Teaching : Classroom Managment, Discipline Instructioin and Motivation program for improving teacher training and retention.

His work is proven throughout the nation to improve behavior, raise test scores, while making the job of teaching doable and enjoyable.

There are thousands of teachers who would be happy to tell you their stories .

Julie  07/03/2008 10:46 AM Report

I am a professional that is considering becoming a teacher and so I have been paying a great deal of attention to the woes of my local education systems (north MS and west TN). For Kopp to say that expecting more of kids is completely opposite of concerns over parental involvement and home life just shows how ignorant she is of familial influence on acheivement. How much have we seen ties between parental education attainment and their children's acheivement levels? Also, something no one seems to speak on is how detrimental our public school teachers' communication abilities are in the children's achievement...how can children retain much less reapply knowledge shared when teachers are incapable of pronouncing/annunciating terms properly, let alone phrase test questions or evaluate essay or narrative responses when the teachers themselves are unable to form a proper sentence or speak clearly? It's about time that we address this problem and ensure that an education degree, regardless of subject or age being taught, is also contingent upon acquiring skills associated with good speakers.

Jane  07/03/2008 09:43 AM Report

Hey, Mr Rose, when are you going to give one or two old-style veteran teachers some airtime? If your series is on Education, surely long-time teachers like Linda Mae at 4:43 below are the obvious people to interview. Your recent guests have all been movers, shakers, and spinners — high in name recognition, very low on hands-on experience. If I'm wrong and I've missed any interviews you've had with real educators, please re-run them. In fact: run those interviews back-to-back with the Kopp and Weingarten ones, and let the real educator please stand up.

Erin - CPS teacher  07/03/2008 09:19 AM Report

Teach For America is a great program and the enthusiasm these young men and women bring to schools should not be dismissed. However, most teachers come to the classroom with just as much enthusiasm. What I find hard to believe is Kopp never brought up the lack of enrichment many of these low income students never experience from ages 0 – 5. So much happens to children’s development during this time. If children are not read aloud to, exposed to books and take part in conversations and experiences with their parents, (all pre-reading experiences) getting them caught up by the time they reach kindergarten is extremely difficult. The fact that Kopp describes fourth graders who are reading at a first grade level and do catch up within one to two years is phenomenal. I want to know what this teacher did and I will do it. The single most important experience children can engage in before entering school is being read aloud to according to Becoming a Nation of Readers: The Report of the Commission on Reading. Many of my students come to class rarely having been read to by anyone. If Teach for America can move these students up to their grade level in reading, perhaps they should take over American classrooms.

As a teacher, I encourage parents to obtain a library card and read to their child every night. I probe the library myself every week seeking books that pique my students’ interests. My principal and the entire school works so very hard to encourage students and parents to work hard for education. It does not happen easily. All these people are dedicated and that dedication must be continued at home too. The problem is systemic. What does Teacher For America have that dedicated educators do not? I want to know.

Patrick J. Sheeran Jr.  07/03/2008 09:01 AM Report

I attempted to watch this video again but couldn't get through it.

These are the addresses I emailed expressing my opinions of who they hire and why. Seems to me they hire people who come out of the same systems they are trying to better. What stuck in my head is this "future leaders" thing she talks about. The conventional structure is where TFA hires from. Hardly changing nothing.

Email TFA telling them what's what.

admissions@teachforamerica.org

press.center@teachforamerica.org

staffing@teachforamerica.org

Tia  07/03/2008 07:22 AM Report

I was disappointed. This woman talks a lot, but doesn't really say anything.

Why was she given such a long time slot, if she can't answer a question?

David  07/03/2008 07:08 AM Report

I can't add anything important about education to what others have written before me. I am glad that out of, and because of, Ms. Kopp's poor performance a substantive debate about education did emerge, if only online, here on Charlie Rose's website. And a minority opinion -- I thought Charlie Rose did a good job of letting Wendy Kopp hang herself. He asked her several times to provide specifics, and she did not. He was being a gentleman not to rub her face in it. To me, Mr. Rose showed with subtlety the fault that lies with Ms. Kopp's ideas about education, or lack thereof.

Linda Mae  07/03/2008 04:43 AM Report

Several things come to mind after watching the show and reading the comments made. I retired 4 years ago after teaching 8th graders English and American History for 37 years. I've been the director of our town's adult education program for the past 20 years as well. You want to discuss education in America? Let's do it. First, American students should not be compared with students around the world and found lacking. Many other countries have a cut off after 5th grade in which kids are divided into educational attainment groups. It could be 10 years, 11 or 12 if it is a student going to college. In many countries, kids wear uniforms. In many countries, girls and boys are put into same sex schools. In many countries, moms and dads live together, and mom's chief job is to be mom. In many countries, students do not drive to school so that they can drive to their after school job so that they can earn enough money to pay for their cars. In many countries, the society and the family expect that the children will learn - for that is the most important role of the school. In many countries, students are given opportunities to get into training programs at an early age because it is realized that not all children will be going on to university. In many countries, parents realize that they do not live in Lake Wobegone - where the children are all above average. In many countries, children are expected to memorized their basic math facts so that they can easily complete higher math requirements. In many countries, it is expected that homework is completed, attention is paid in class and that the parents are involved in the education of their children. Would that be the case in America! We do have a society that devalues education. It is considered to be too-white by some. It is considered to be needless by others because they will make their way in the music, sports or entertainment industry. How do we fix it? The best advice is to let teachers - those who have earned MA's in their field to lead the way. During my tenure, I had to endure whole language, new math, the end of practice, no red ink in editing, plus too many others to list. It took years to correct the whole language mess. Research states that 30% of students require direct instruction to learn how to decode words yet the concept of phonics became verboten. Students were supposed to be able to "guess" the word from its context and the pictures on the page. Duh! As if we all had a thesaurus chip in our brain. Then, the "experts" came out to say that they NEVER meant to have phonics stopped. A few years ago, the National Council of Teachers of Math admitted that perhaps they were a little off when suggesting that kids not fill up their dear little brains with memorized basic math facts because, of course, we had calculators. (My friend in India said he had to memorize the times table 1 - 12) to use. I find that students in my adult education ABE class know the higher math skills but struggle with their basic math facts. I was elated that President Bush created a Committee under NCLB to study our math programs for 2 years. The report came out this year. Any teacher could have written in in 20 minutes but she would have been ostracized as being out of touch with "modern" education. "Learn less but learn it more." is its major concept. You need to compare the math standards for the NCTM and Singapore to see the common sense in it. I am thankful to the CT testing program. It made me stop and review the skills being tested. Did I agree with them? Did I teach them? Were they necessary? I concluded that there are no skills on the CMT or CAPT tests that our students should not be able to demonstrate mastery. If they cannot, then I would be remiss not to review until they could. Of course, not every student is the same. Some of my concrete thinkers found it difficult to provide the support and elaboration in writing their persuasive essay. They are hands-on learners and will make fine engineers or craftspersons. They will develop their abstract thinking skills as they age. If teachers are given the opportunity to do their jobs, then things will change. If society and families value education, then things will change. I always thought that talented and gifted experiences were more important to be given to all children starting at the earliest to make up for the lack of learning they got at home. I attended a presentation on Goals 2000 and heard about a high school in Kentucky that turned its failure into success by one simple act. The principal determined that parents needed to come to the school in person 4 times per year to meet with a teacher and get their children's report cards. When parents called the superintendent to complain, they heard the super say that he had hired the principal for her educational background and had 100% faith in her decisions and the parent needed to speak to her. Simple yet effective. I was glad that Wendy did not tell Charlie that charter schools were the answer. Many charter schools do not have to have their kids take the state's tests so how can we be sure that they are comparable. Plus, parents need to decide that their kids attend a charter school - which shows that they are concerned parents. That child will be successful anywhere. I'd love to have a charter school. I could choose the students plus ask them to leave if they did not behave. Such power. Also, CT had ARC (alternate route to certification) for those who got their BA or MA but wanted a career change. They apply, attend classes for the summer, and then go into a school where they are monitored and they also attend weekly classes. Most know the content but need to learn the other. What makes a teacher? The firm belief that with their help, a child will be able to learn. We are do-gooders who will be willing to try anything. Of course, there is another reality. Many of my adult education students were students I had known in 8th grade. They return when they are about 20 - 24 on average - with the knowledge that they need their high school diploma. During the intake, I discuss why they quit. Most of them shrug their shoulders and tell me it was the dumbest thing they did but they had to. They work the hardest because they have a goal. I also think our testing program in CT Adult Education helps. We use the CASAS system out of San Diego appraisal tests to tell us the student level. We give the level test which tells us the skills we need to teach. Students know that they must demonstrate mastery of those skills. Focus. We offer GED preparation or the EDP (External Diploma Program) - a portfolio based program in which students must demonstrate 100% mastery of each competency. CASAS also has a terrific worker retraining model which is being used in the country of Singapore to retrain its workers. The whole country is using it. Other Asian countries are looking into it. As it becomes successful, American businesses will "discover" it and as with Quality Circles, adopt it here. We have many students who did not make it through our k - 12 program who will need this training. I believe we, in America, need to consider education K to A - because education is life long. We owe it to our future to do the best for all to learn.

JW  07/03/2008 03:46 AM Report

I agree with the last comment (by TABS) and many of the others as well, and wanted to pick up on a few things Kopp says about her program as she deflects Rose's questions.

(1) The TFA alums, as she calls them, i.e., the young adults who are doing a Masters through this program, have a "deep belief" that students facing challenges in low income communities can "excel academically on an absolute scale," and this deep belief is "part of the ultimate solution" to education. First of all, no "solutions" to society's problems are going to come out the minds of transient grad students. And unless the human species has undergone some radical genetic change, people cannot all excel academically. Some kids will do better than others, that's a given.

(2) When Rose asks what do TFA participants see that makes them believe the situation isn't hopeless, she says "concrete results" — a very vague term at face value, and actually no great shakes. Virtually every teacher in America gets concrete results of some kind or the country would be illiterate. If she means concrete results across the board, no system can do this, not hers or anyone else's.

(3) She says there's no magic to anything, nor is the solution elusive. It's "about doing everything well," but she avoids specifying what "everything" includes and what it means when those unspecified things are done "well." Clearly, if a teacher spends a lot of time dealing one aspect of classroom activity, like group dynamics, there is going to be less time to teach the subject really well.

(4) Kopp says that one of the successful TFA teachers was "on a mission to move [the\ kids forward, not going through the motions of a lesson plan." If she's minimizing the importance of a lesson plan, she's not understanding that the best ones are honed over time, as teachers do "go through the motions" of them working out the kinks and adapting them to the needs of the students sitting before them each year.

(5) Kopp said that this same good TFA teacher was "completely goal-oriented in her instruction" (I don't know of a single teacher who isn't, by the way) and "then completely relentless, whatever it took." Relentless is a very strong word: Does it mean explaining things over and over? marking papers for several hours a night? making phone-calls to parents when there's trouble? If so, we don't need TFA to tell us any of that. It comes with being passionate about the job, and many of us, thank goodness, are.

BOTTOM LINE: TFA is a teacher ed program, and a somewhat aberrant one because it doesn't actually invite applicants to become teachers. Instead, it's looking for smart young adults with 4 years of college behind them to become TFA "corps members" and leaders. On the Alumni page of its website, there's not a single mention of the word "teacher," only how the program fulfills the participants themselves in various ways and enhances their leadership potential.

Kopp can fill the airwaves with hype and propaganda for her cause, and Charlie Rose can let her get away with not answering his many pointed questions. But, TFA is really just a player in a corporative campaign to privatize education. It can put malleable and transient workers into the workforce on the lowest salary steps, while education departments go around breaking up schools for questionable reasons, busting the teachers unions, and driving out veterans from the profession. TFA is a business project capitalizing on a concept of teaching with passion. Kopp didn't name one thing that sets it apart from what all committed teachers already know a whole lot about.

TABS  07/03/2008 03:04 AM Report

Educating humans is an individual process, each person moves at their own speed and has their own interests. The educational process of 100 years ago was more attuned to those needs. As the American population grew the educational process became more institutionalized till today America is trying to make one shoe fit all, with standardized tests etc. Human education is not an assembly line process. MS Koop maybe having success at the moment because her idea so far is working on a small scale that can pay attention to individual needs. The test will come when her system grows large enough where the individual attention gets lost in the bureaucracy of standardization.

sall   07/02/2008 11:50 PM Report

Two words: White Supremacy

Many people are to blame, but the people that are most to blame are ALL White Supremacists.

If someone isn't willing to treat you right, why would they teach you right?

Let's take these issues one by one.

Poverty--

I believe it was Ghandi that said poverty is the worst form of violence. Poverty has to be viewed as a form of violence. No one is free when others are oppressed.

70% illegitimacy rate, or "black pathology"---

Wendy Kopp has admitted herself in an interview with Brian Lamb of C-Span that despite coming from a single parent home the child has the same chance of being successful in the classroom.

Those that have the ability to solve this problem do not have the will. Those that have the will do not have the ability.

So what one has to surmise is that the White Supremacists need a measuring stick; someone to be better than. Let's hope that for the sake of the proponents of justice that White Supremacy is in fact going out of business.

Patrick J. Sheeran Jr.  07/02/2008 11:10 PM Report

I agree with almost all of these comments and am happy to see that others saw what I saw when i watched this video. Truly infuriating to watch. I watch Rose every night for intellectual conversation and to learn things I don't know. I didn't think Rose necessarily gave up on trying to ask her what specific things that should or are being done but there's only so many times he asked what those things are without getting Kopp angry. Maybe I'm wrong but i thought he tried to get to some actual facts plenty, it was her call and she was just too secretive, pretentious and reserved which leads me to believe she isn't doing anything to help. I went ahead and emailed Teach for America myself stating my complete dissatisfaction with her and their organization. Honestly she left me with no information and led me to conclude that Teach for America practices some sort of Educational Cleansing. I hope others have emailed or will email T.F.A. as well.

lorri  07/02/2008 11:06 PM Report

I had to watch this in tiny doses because it so offended me. Is this America's idea of educational reform? Her answers are vague and show little knowledge of the concepts of teaching and learning. I am afraid for our children when individuals like this are given credibility.

Tauna Rogers  07/02/2008 10:57 PM Report

Mr. Rose,

It is very, very difficult to stomach this video. There is real rage out here sir from real teachers. In the interest of fairness and journalistic integrity, please do as one of your fans suggested here:

http://www.stager.org/blog/2008/01/charlie-rose-lobotomized-by-education.html

Stager's list is a fine one but I would certainly add Monty Neill of FairTest.

You have much to learn about the war on public education sir. Dig deeply. I do not doubt your good intentions but you have swallowed waves of disinformation hook, line, and sinker.

Brooke Thomas  07/02/2008 10:56 PM Report

Ms. Kopp is a pro at avoiding the questions asked. In fact, her inability to actually provide concrete answers makes me wonder if she would have been accepted into her own program.

She says that the problem is that "we are looking for an easy answer" but in reality, TFA is just that. TFA aims not to close the achievement gap- that can only be done by actually teaching children to succeed and compete in the real world- it strives to put warm bodies in the classroom and to provide those warm bodies with better options after their 2-year experiment. This does not put students on the "level playing field" that she speaks and it is not as accurate as she would like the public to believe (http://avoicecriesout.com/2008/06/30/the-teach-for-america-support-system/).

Mr. Rose disappoints because he lets up when she dances around the actual questions. Why not ask why TFA is only successful when looking at student test scores but not at student academic progress once graduating? Why not ask her why TFA's cannot raise ELA scores? Why not ask her if closing the achievement gap is so important why not get these "highly qualified leaders" to stay in the classroom longer than two years? Why not force her to answer "how many TFA's stay"?

If we want to end educational inequity then we have to end economic inequity.

Roy Fassel  07/02/2008 09:38 PM Report

I have a personal message for Wendy Kopp. I quit counting, but you used the term..."kid".... at least 30-40 times during your short interview. A "kid" can be a goat or an antelope. You never used the word "child" unless I missed it. The federal program is not "Leave no kid behind." A youngster does not experience "kidhood", but experiences "childhood." Now to the real issue. The primary reason that America has lost its educational battles is simply political correctness. It is beyond my comprehension to listen to someone like Kopp, who never ever discusses what she could not, or would not, say. Most of the problem areas, such as inner cities, have something bordering 60-70% single family births. There is not a society in human history that has ever survived this kind of human behavior. Unless people are willing to address the ROOT CAUSES of our declining education results, nothing good can come of all of these efforts. Hillary Clinton had the famous quote of "It takes a village to raise a child." No it doesn’t. It takes a family. It is delusional and quite harmful to think children can be raised and educated in the new liberal-village concept of not judging behavior. This country has done great harm to its children for the past many decades by lower standards, as a politically correct concept. Kopp talks about the need for "equal opportunity" in the educational fields of America. She is barking up the wrong tree. Every child……..Kopp only refers to children as "kids"…..who are born with a single parent is left behind at childbirth. The idea of having no child left behind begins in the home and does not begin in government programs. America has experimented with a lot of "progressive" concepts the past 40 or so years. Most of these programs don't work. This society has really failed its children by not addressing human behavior and "family values"....a controversial phrase. Lets not have family values and watch the children (or kids) be destroyed and left behind at birth. Progressive rubbish.

Kim Hoag  07/02/2008 08:42 PM Report

After listening to this "Hour on Education" I am frustrated and angry. Please read Lynn Wilde's email for a great rebuttal. As for me--a teacher of 20 years and hoping desperately that Mr. Rose was going to bring his intellect to the subject, I heard nothing that was helpful to the crises of education.

Because of "No Child Left Behind" teachers live in fear of not clearing the bar. Great teachers are forced to teach "TO THE TEST." We do not teach, we are into test prep only. Summer school is not for those who need it, but for those in the middle who "might do better." So the highs and the lows are tossed aside for the "bubble kids," who might raise the school's score (so named because of the bubbles that are filled in on the test). We use materials in the classroom not designed by educators, but by testing companies who are outside the realm of education. They are publishers concerned with profit and not children. We are told how to teach by administrators who are only interested in scores, and they are spurred on by politicians who know nothing of education, but who will garner votes by promising to "raise the scores" of children. Learning as knowledge and as a tool is scrapped in favor of “trivial pursuit.” Teachers try desperately to cover a multitude of areas knowing they are failing the children. Test scores? Where else do we demand that someone studies hard for 8 months and then is tested without ever knowing precisely what they are to be tested on beyond the general content areas. We are treating human beings, and children, at that, as if they are on an assembly line--products that can easily be compared and judged. Each year, the children come more and more behind. Educative research is paid no more attention than the voices of teachers.

Teachers are mortgaging their houses to leave the profession early because of the insane pressures, and the fact that they can no longer take the guilt and grief of not being able to teach in a way the children desperately need.

And what do we get from the "Hour of Education?" An extended commercial that neither raises nor addresses any issues, let alone any solutions. Do not place the great tragedy of education at the feet of educators. To us, it is a 12 hour-a -day job of frustration. We are professionals who are never considered as such, in an art that has been reduced to a factory of “kids in and kids out.” The heroes are the teachers who stay on the front lines attempting to surreptitiously do damage control and teach--just teach for the love of knowledge and the kids--until they are caught and chastised for wasting time.

Debra Shobe  07/02/2008 07:44 PM Report

Dear Charlie Rose,

Teach for America is not the last solution to build a massive force of leaders inside and outside of education. It's not fair and very unrealistic to think that, Teach for America, on its own, by training teachers and sending them to these small low-income communities, can be the only solution to improving education in the public school system.

As a teacher, teaching is the first responsibility of the teacher; it is the central concern of no other person in education. However, the present arrangement, in which functions are shared by many and exercised at the point of need, will probably continue in American education, for the arrangement is a useful one.

Teachers must be prepared to exercise individual judgment in meeting situations in order to maintain proper emphasis on his major assignment and in order to maintain mutually supporting relationships among his varied functions. He or she can work out these relationships more intelligently and creatively if he or she grasps the essential character of each type of responsiblity he or she carries. It is especially important that we have clear understanding of the nature of his teaching function.

Teaching is a nonrepetitive process. No two groups of learners are ever the same; nor is one class the same from day to day. The world around the classroom changes constantly; the teacher hemself changes. The teacher has abundant opportunity to "be creative" in the way he or she deals with all of these changing conditions.

When an individual is trying to do something creative as a teacher, what is the product? It is clear what the product is not. It is not people, for teachers do not mold people as if they were clay. The "product" of the teacher's creativity is opportunities for individuals and groups to experience and learn.

Creativity in teaching breeds good teaching practices, but not all would accept this judgement or criteria for determining what is good. It seems best to avoid confusion by not equating goodness in teaching with creativity in teaching. Propose that teaching behavior fashioned in deliberate response to the components of a situation be called creative. With such a difinition considerable agreement among observers should be possible.

I am convinced that a democratic society stands to benefit from a view of the creative process that encourages each person to engage in it to the extent of his ability. The possible by-products (joy of living and creating, self-esteem, growth) are valuable to the individual and to his society, whether or not the product created constitues an original contribution (is "surprising").

In the Teach for America it does provide the same goals as those in all of our public schools. It takes all the resources of the institution to make learning effiecient, excellent and effective. The most important elements in our public schools are leadership, school environment, curriculum, clasroom instruction and management as well as assessment and evaluation. The principal is the key person for any effective school. With a strong instructional leader who plans, organizes, staffs, coordinates, and directs the school improvement effort, almost any school can be transformed quite rapidly from an ineffective to a very effective place for learning.

Lynn Wilde  07/02/2008 06:00 PM Report

Noel Bush, you are so right.

Lynn Wilde  07/02/2008 05:58 PM Report

If Wendy Kopp can't tell us how her top performing principals and teachers achieve, then how she replicate that in her training of teachers? Where was the challenge to her inability to answer questions? Where was the research, the in depth questioning, the exposure of where people are coming from that we expect from alternative media? Doing what news/views programs already do, presenting sides to an issue, is not what we need from Charlie Rose.

Where was the research? In 10 minutes I found out that American Federation of Teachers has a page on Charter schools, which Wendy Kopp lauds, with reports in 2004 and 2008 that show that their students do worse, and sometimes as well as, similar regular public school students; that charter schools have had the freedom but not the accountability, that they hire untrained teachers, that there are for-profit charter schools, that charter schools have not produced innovation in education (www.aft.org/teachers/pubs-report/choice.htm). You don't bother to ask Wendy Kopp if she ever taught school. No, she didn't. You don't ask her to show statistics that students of TFA do any better than "regular students". They, don't. You don't ask for details on use of TFA funds. What's her salary? See www.slate.com/id/2175963 for some facts on TFA.

Where are the teachers? Why isn't at least one represented?

I've been a teacher for 30 years. One thing we need ( Yes, and our schools should be palaces of beauty and opportunity, not dependent on where we live.)are smaller class sizes, about 10 students to one teacher and an aide. Then teachers can and will be happy to fulfill all the roles that are hidden in teaching K-12: personal and career counselor, parent educator and counselor, mediator, etc. Students will have the time for guided class discussion that is necessary to develop critical thinking skills. Teachers will have the time and energy to read, communicate about and evaluate student writing and work carefully. Students will feel cared about. With 30+, now 20-25 in lower grades in elementary school, what human can care and nurture all when first she or he has to grade a pile of papers, plan exciting lessons, attend meetings, well, you know?

The show was a failure of journalism.