Charlie Rose Science Series
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05/12/2008
Randi Weingarten
A conversation with Randi Weingarten
Keywords:
A conversation with Randi Weingarten, current president of the United Federation of Teachers (UFT), American Federation of Teachers (AFT), AFL-CIO.
DVD
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Charlie Rose DVDs on Amazon.
Audio
Audio available through Audible.com.
Audio available through Audible.com.
Transcripts
Transcripts available through Voxant.
Transcripts available through Voxant.
All in all, I thought Randi did a fine job in expressing the frustrations and challenges that NYC teachers face on a daily basis. Has Bloomberg or Klein ever taken her up on her offer to teach a class for one period a day? I think not.My school opted to share the merit pay equally among all UFT members. Test scores do not measure all teaching and learning!The entire school community does. Some principals rule like dictators. They seek no input from parents nor educators.Go figure.
"And right now in terms of New York City, there is three years for tenure, thereâ??s three years of evaluations and supervisors evaluate people pretty much two, three, four times a year IN TERMS OF GOING IN AND SEEING THEIR STUFF." One would be hard pressed to find "evaluating" that was less quantitative/benchmarked/transparent and therefore student/customer/parent/tax payer-friendly. It is profound relief and blessing that technology and globalization now bring in an age in which students/parents choose and public-funds-pay teachers for each individual subject, based on easily accessible student performance data and recommendations. http://globaleducationforyou.wordpress.com http://eriksyring.wordpress.com
How can you possibly tie tenure to student's test scores when half or more don't even show up in class or even for the test? Here's a better one than that: Excessively absent, excessively late, suspensions, detention, students who disrupt the class and DO NOT allow the teacher to teach or the other stuedents to learn etc. Kids have a right to learn but DO NOT have the right to interfere in the learning of others. HELLO MR. Mayor! Let's tell it like it is, just once!
Good questions, obfuscated answers. As for the comments, why is it that math/science teachers look at this differently from those who teach literature and such? Now, since it seems that our education comes short on math, would it be sensible to listen for solutions to the math teachers whose students are more successful overall?
Our school system is the harbinger of our times and culture. We are the "canary" that comes from the mines "to tell the story". I have been an educator since 1975 and know that education is a myriad of truths and complexities. It saddens me to view polarization among people, regarding schools/education and all the issues that surround it. Polarization reduces insight to "answers and solutions" that need to ensue open discussion/debate. Randi Weingarten does not blindly support teachers; she is passionate on creating structures that will allow for creativity, support, and PROGRESS. Klein and Bloomberg have made strides. Kudos to them for striving for accountability and children. However, we are not factories that should be closed because we are not "producing". Education is not a business; it has more nuance. Support us with accountability that doesn't intimidate and/or discards experience/age. Testing should be a by product of education; not the end result. We work under much pressure. I see students fly, despite having their wings clipped. I see teachers teach despite being "tested" on many fronts. Many teachers are remembered for a life time. Yet, we are often scapegoated for the "failures" of systems and times. It is a fragile system, where we all need to come together to remember the most most important resouce: the CHILD. Smoke and mirrors, politics, trends, and blame will not enrich our children's dreams. It will not secure our future.
Our school system is the harbinger of our times and culture. We are the "canary" that comes from the mines "to tell the story". I have been an educator since 1975 and know that education is a myriad of truths and complexities. It saddens me to view polarization among people, regarding schools/education and all the issues that surround it. Polarization reduces insight to "answers and solutions" that need to ensue open discussion/debate. Randi Weingarten does not blindly support teachers; she is passionate on creating structures that will allow for creativity, support, and PROGRESS. Klein and Bloomberg have made strides. Kudos to them for striving for accountability and children. However, we are not factories that should be closed because we are not "producing". Education is not a business; it has more nuance. Support us with accountability that doesn't intimidate and/or discards experience/age. Testing should be a by product of education; not the end result. We work under much pressure. I see students fly, despite having their wings clipped. I see teachers teach despite being "tested" on many fronts. Many teachers are remembered for a life time. Yet, we are often scapegoated for the "failures" of systems and times. It is a fragile system, where we all need to come together to remember the most most important resouce: the CHILD. Smoke and mirrors, politics, trends, and blame will not enrich our children's dreams. It will not secure our future.
Just like any industry, there must be some way to get rid of poor performers. The fact that 800 underperforming teachers are in "rubber rooms" and 10 teachers fired, shows that the performance management system is not working. The teachers union should support weeding out the poor teachers. Instead they resist so parent respond by taking their kids to private schools or charter schools. That union needs to join the real world at some point.
Why not bring back the Semester Promotion program that was in effect about 65 years ago in Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens, New York, as well as in Newark and Hoboken, New Jersey? Under this program, the school year was divided into two separate entities, i.e., the first grade was designated as 1A and 1B. A student starting in 1A in September was promoted in February to 1B, moving to another classroom with a different teacher. A student failing to pass 1A would have to repeat that class and would lose ONLY half a year. This program would eliminate social promotion and make the school system more ACCOUNTABLE. Tragically, today many students are forced to languish months in a grade which they are failing. Edward M. O'Mara 28 Grande Blvd. West Windsor, NJ 08550-2429
I have never seen Charlie Rose so intent on pushing someone into a corner. Charlie and Bloomy are friends so this makes sense. What is hard to fathom are some of Randi's responses or lack of response. She projected the shell of a great labor leader. Her posture suggested defeat. Her pauses indicated ambivalence and the desire to be a good politician. This was very difficult to watch. Please view it again and ask yourself if this is the best the UFT can do to protect its union members? Very sad.
Unfortunately, the Bloomberg administration is more focused on test results and have done nothing to focus on social or behavioral problems. The pressure on passing these tests are overwhelming. Yet when kids come in unprepared, no homework, and acting up, there is no support. Teachers must also be social workers and parents. It is not like the movies or television where that one special teacher is able to reach everyone. (Notice the small- class size and kids sitting in rows) The only show that came close to reality was last season's The Wire. Schools that have excellent discipline codes and follow through work best. Charters can expel students. Public schools have allowed schools to become violent. Now schools are allowing "seat credit" and "do-overs" for failed tests and non-assignments. Not just one do-over, but as many as possible. What's the lesson here??? Bloomberg is looking for ways to pass these students by giving them prizes, letting them get credit for just showing up, and telling them it's okay if you don't do homework as long as you hand in something before the year. This is NOT education.
George Lindamood's comment below is right on the mark. I've heard it stated numerous times on CR that the most important variable in education is strong teachers. I disagree. The key question is whether the child is capable of learning. A child can't learn if there is too much turmoil at home. When a kid has to worry about basic needs being met, school naturally takes a backseat. If unions and government want to find common ground, focus on creating ideas for helping children from unstable homes. Putting a dent in that problem, while likely expensive, would almost certainly pay off in ending the cycle of poverty, creating greater participation in the economy, lowering incarceration rates, etc.
<P>The one issue I wanted to hear more about in this interview was the "Ed Rendell" vein (see 2/16/2006). Specifically, the idea that science and math teachers should be offered more in an attempt at attracting them from industry. Probably due to lack of time, Charlie did not bring up the motivation of this strategy, nor did he ask why school-wide pay incentives are so important to maintaining the community of the school. </P><P> My interest in this is comes from my current career prospects. I am a mathematician about to complete his Ph.D. I also enjoy teaching mathematics. I am interested in teaching at the high-school level in New York City schools, however, in the long-run, I cannot afford to live off of a teachers salary. I am kept from being a teacher by the economic differential between teaching and industry. Why not at least lessen the differential in these fields to the point that people like me can realistically consider a career in teaching where we are needed? Is there evidence that such a differential exists for other fields? How would offering math and science teachers enough to make teaching a viable career choice hurt the community of the school? </P><P> As this issue was not explored, I am forced to presume. My presumption is that the pay differential for other teachers exists but not to the point of being prohibitive. I presume also that by community the UFT means union solidarity. Specifically, the UFT is worried about solidarity within the union being eroded by a subject-based differential. When the interests of math and science teachers are in some sense separate from those of other subjects, they haven't enough incentive to support their fellow teachers. If this is the reason, this is an example where the union's interest in maintaining solidarity directly conflicts with their primary mission of attracting the best teachers. </P><P> If Randi Weingarten, or her future counterpart, ever revisit this program and should this matter not have been resolved, this is the matter I most want to hear more about. </P><P>
Jim Dick - comparing CR to McLaughlin is like comparing tennis to the WWF.
In 2001-2 I spent a year as an AmeriCorps volunteer working with kids in the local middle school. Following that I was named to the local school board to fill a mid-term vacancy. From those two experiences, I can tell you that the biggest problem in our schools is students who come to school totally unprepared to learn, usually because of dysfunctional situations in the home: divorce, poverty, drugs, violence -- anything that stirs the emotions and/or addles the brain. This is verified by research which shows repeatedly that the single best predictor of a school's performance on standardized tests is the percentage of students on free/reduced lunch programs. The correlation is a negative one: lots of kids on the program = lots of kids from dysfunctional families = lousy test scores. No matter how gifted, a teacher can do very little to change this. Tinkering with the curriculum doesn't help at all. Reducing class size helps only to the extent that one screwed-up kid doesn't adversely affect as many others who aren't. Hence, No Child Left Behind is largely irrelevant, a distraction, and a waste of time and money. But teachers, and certainly administrators, are loath to intervene -- that is, call in Social Services -- unless and until the kid who shows up at school is REALLY in sad shape, which is understandable given the sheer numbers of kids and the complexities of intervention. But until we address this problem from a WHOLE SYSTEM standpoint, our efforts will be in vain.
The problem with education in a nut shell: The teachers fear the administratiors, the administrators fear the school boards, the school boards fear the parents, the parents fear the children, and the children fear NO ONE.
Not sure that anyone reads these, especially Mr. Rose, but this is my second comment. Both comments and a potential third has to do with Mr. Rose's interruptions of guests. Seems like its increasing, and disproportionatley so with women guests. Ms. O'Sullivan, Harvard, was a recent example and there was one that I just can't remember now, who was one in the last year. My point is that as I watch and think of the McLaughlin group, I sense that Mr. Rose is either latently misogynistic or becomeing so. Its an impression, not supported, but it just seems males get fewer interruptions. Might be worth looking at some of the tapes with this in mind. Thanks for the show. Jim
I noticed that both Randi and Charlie avoided real issues facing NYC because both would have to site Bloomberg's record. His disrespect for parents. That his "small schools" are working because they don't accept as many English Language Learners or Special Ed students into their program because it will bring down their stats. They would have to talk about the age discrimination suit. They would have to talk about the overcrowding where some schools start lunch before 10 AM, and how other are packed in trailers that are so dilapidated, the students freeze in the winter and bake in the summer. How he plans to build public schools on toxic sites, yet will give space to charter schools in schools that use their available space for teaching the Arts and will overcrowd a wonderful-working school. How his "School Report Card" gave A's to the most violent schools and C's to the best. How the Arts are suffering under this administration. They would have to talk about the millions of dollars the mayor spent on outside agencies that made decisions that resulted in bus schedule changes that left students waiting for buses for hours in the middle of winter. How he cut budgets in the middle of the term resulting in many after-school programs being cut. They would have to talk about the endless amounts of test prep rather than actual teaching so the mayor can look good. And finally, how the mayor fudged graduation rates so he can appear to be a viable candidate for national office.
Dear Mr. Rose: Must I repeat myself...Kudos to you (..and your team) for terrific and insightful conversations! I really enjoyed (not to say relished in) the comments of your distinguished guest, Ms. Randi Weingarten. Undoubtedly, teachers are underpaid. One thing's for sure, they shouldn't be evaluated. Why? Simply because teachers are what we call in managerial terms an "adhocracy" similar to surgeons (Cf. Henry Mintzberg who fathered the concept of adhocracy). You can't tell a surgeon what to do because he/she is supposed to know what he or she is doing. In other words, the teacher, the surgeon is THE expert. He or she is the boss! The surgeon is the "boss" of the OR, in a similar way, the teacher is the "boss" of the classroom. Schoolboards that hire teachers already conduct an evaluation process. They try to hire the most suitable and competent teachers based on their credentials and overall qualities. This evaluation is "ante". "Post" evaluation is or should be conducted on students and curriculum, not on teachers. If some people insist on evaluating teachers to gauge their performance, that evaluation should be conducted by/among peers. Again, the reason for this is that you cannot tell an expert what to do so for that reason experts should evaluate among themselves. So all the money and time that are spent on evaluating teachers should instead be earmarked and allocated on continuing education. Teachers would greatly benefit from this and so would the students. Thank you very much Mr. Rose for your great program. It is really good. You are good and your guests are very interesting. Sincerely, Paul
As a retired H.S. English teacher, I was appalled by Randi Wiengarten's inadequate responses to your legitimate questions. She's a smart lady, but she did not answer your questions directly. Here are some facts she might have shared: TESTING: Achievement tests are designed to measure STUDENTS' performances, not TEACHERS'. Tests actually retrict the teacher's ability to respond creatively to an individual class. They do not reflect the vast differences in the social backgrounds, or the ability to work under pressure, of many students. Check out the words on the current SAT and ask yourself whether a kid in Harlem could be expected to know them. (Hint: "treacly" is one!) The test, not the education, becomes the goal. At the end of the day, don't we want our kids to be thinkers and lovers of learning? Can a test do that? Teachers SHOULD be tested on their job performance by frequent peer and administrative observation of classroom discipline, management, creativity, preparedness, response to individual student needs, and command of curriculum. Competence in these areas may well lead to student success, but may not. If a teacher creates a safe, orderly environment, fostering a love of learning and respect for others, that may be enough in some situations, and it will last a lifetime. Students must be accountable, but there are many interesting evaluation methods, student portfolios, for example. The union could initiate a project to create innovative ways of measuring performance. MERIT PAY: A good idea, often honored in the breach. Like the death penalty, it is frequently doled out to those undeserving of it. Admnistrators have their favorites, and the money lure does not always bring out the best in teachers. As in corporate America or in politics, competence is not born of high pay. Multi-illion dollar golden parachutes are awarded to corporate execs who have driven their companies to bankruptcy. Politicians, reliant on lobbyists or large donors, make poor decisions. A teacher struggling in an inner city schoolroom needs more tangible support than the promise of a few extra bucks. Of course, there are poor and lazy teachers, as there are incompetents in every job. Before firing them, in an age of teacher shortage, strong intervention and mentoring should be attempted. As Ms. Weingarten did mention, most incompetent teachers are "persuaded" that teaching is a poor career choice. They don't have to be fired. Teaching is not that easy! TENURE: Necessary but needs improvement. Teachers DO need job security, or no one will enter a field where one parent's or child's disapproval, combined with administrative cowardice, can result in a teacher's dismissal or reassignment. Without tenure, teachers would be afraid to tackle any controversial topic, and school is where such idas MUST be confronted, to prepare students to think critically. And, frankly, non-tenured teachers are afraid to criticize administrative errors or to give failing grades, even to students who would benefit from receiving the grade they deserve. However, NEW teachers should be given FIVE years to hone their craft. My first principal told me he would "lose money" on me in the first year, "break even" the second, and just begin to recoup his "investment" in the third. He was right. Experienced teachers can be evaluated in 3 years, but new ones need more time AND peer mentoring. The union could lead the way by creating mentoring programs, peer review councils and POSITIVE interventions. Also, tenure could be postponed, if the teacher has promise but there is a question. WHAT TEACHERS NEED: Smaller clsses, proper equipment, competent support services, books and computers, preparation time. Oh yes, and SMALLER CLASSES and some respect from the community. I disagree with Ms. Weingarten that teachers work ten hours a day. They work far MORE THAN TEN HOURS, especially if you include final exam grading. Phys Ed teachers have rigorous after-school coaching assignments. Preparation takes hours, and teachers do not have offices; it must be done at home, amid the distractions of family life. So it is usually done late at night. Believe me, most teachers get little sleep, and vacations are always spent, in part, catching up on paper work or preparing for future lessons. I loved teaching and would have done it for free, if I could have afforded it. My rewards were far more than my salary, but I despair for the young teachers in this test-driven era, where there is no time to read poetry on a spring day, because of an impending exam.
I had to wonder what Charlie's relationship with Ms. Weingarten is. He certainly allowed her to obscure, obfuscate and avoid in her answers to his questions. This would have been a real disservice to viewers except in this case the burden is hers to justify the protection racket she represents. She did not meet this burden. We allow unions to interfere with the education of our youth at our peril.
I taught math and electronics for 19.6 years. It does not matter how much money you throw at the problem nothing will be done to raise the standards of our educational system until parents are brought back into the equation. When you have parents tell you "I can not make him carry out the garbage. How do I make him do his homework"? In todays environment the parent input is more likely to be a complaint about to much homework, classroom rules (only when their child is involved for breaking the rules) or some other nonsense. The threat of the lawsuit has made the administration of policy and rules a non issue. In most schools I am familiar with the only rule that is applicable when it comes to parents is "that there are no rules." Every person feels that they are an expert when it comes to education. After all they have all had a minimum experience of 12 years. I found in my tenure involved parents who made their children accountable to them for attendance, grades and homework never had a problem. (The top 15% of students) My Figures. The bottom 15% are never going to achieve a passing grade no matter "no child left behind" policies. The 70% in the middle, if they had parents that cared, would pass and some would even go onto college. The ones that do not have involved parents will drop out or go on to be part of the unskilled labor force.
Charlie's focused question was circumvented by Ms. Weingarten. After being in private industry for 30 years and now teaching for 8 years, I have witnessed union organizations protect teachers at any cost...even at the expense of the children. Teachers who should not be anywhere near children because of their tempers or attitudes; teachers who admit that they do not enjoy children; teachers who cannot meet the demands of an evolving society of students; teachers who do not care to expand or update their own education after 20-25-30 years. I have witnessed it all...yet, when it comes to cutbacks, overrages are handled based on seniority only...it doesn't matter how many degrees one has or how many awards or how successful one is in the classroom...seniority is backed and vehemently supported by teacher's organizations. And, yes, it definitely is at the expense of our children. This issue can be argued any which way from here to eternity, yet, the truth remains and no one wants to truly talk about it. Teachers are protected, and rightfully so as labor unions are supposed to protect the rights of workers. However, education in America has provided an almost lifetime job security for those who meet the status quo. Is that what we want for our children? I think not.
I don't see any system of merit pay or vouchers making any real difference in education and the competition may well be inimical. Studies have shown no difference between public and private education outcomes. We have never paid teachers at any level as much as they should be paid and I think that's because we don't really consider education to be important. We have gotten the kind of teachers we've demanded. But I don't mean just formal education, indeed, we may be right in devaluing some of that, but rather education as an integral part of work. Drucker speaks not of education, but of "the miracle of training." We have terrible labor-management relations in every institution. Even our army in WWII was less efficacious in this respect than the Germans. Ppl are afraid to take vacations much less help each other with their jobs. We have become short-sighted in every aspect of investment. Our economic policies have forced both parents to work, destroying families and communities, causing behavior problems, and encouraging schools to use measures that really ought not have any place in education. In many ways the crisis in education parallels that in medical care.
At Harvard each department submits itself to annual review by a dozen or so authorities, none of them connected with the University. The input provided by the "visiting committees" contributes palpably to the excellence of the University. A similar mechanism might be put in place in the country's public schools K-12. Towns and cities overflow with professionals in all fields, many with doctorates and other credentials. Visiting committees to the various areas of instruction could easily be formed by volunteers.
Who would disagree that an educated citizenryâ??and consequently municipal school taxesâ??is a necessity if we hope to live in a civilization? Yet there is a feature of public-school taxation we overlook or else conveniently sweep out of sight. That is, both those with and those without children to be educated at public expense enjoy the indirect benefit of public education I have cited, but only those with children in the public schools receive the additional, direct benefit of having their own progeny educated. PARAGRAPH--This reality, one might argue, warrants tax reform along fairer lines. All property owners, for example, might be liable for a basic property tax assessmentâ??which would include a school charge and which would be determined without reference to real estate values. PARAGRAPH--Inasmuch as children educated at public expense require fulsome expenditure, common sense dictates that parents be responsible for a surcharge to this basic tax bill. The additional levy might be determined, once again, without reference to property values. And any surcharge for use of the public schools should surely be greater or lesser depending on the number of children each family enrolls. PARAGRAPH--Iâ??m told such a revamping of our current system of property taxation here in New Jersey would require an amendment to the state constitution. But constitutions were not dictated on Mt. Sinai: they cannot remain fixed in stone for eternity while the world they govern continues, inevitably, to change. PARAGRAPH--A tax plan like the one suggested would go a long way to remedy the injustice inherent in our current system of municipal taxation. For example, a working family and a widow with identical real estate valuations, the former, say, with two children in the public schools, the widow living off a meager monthly Social Security check and having no assets besides her house and property, would, no longer, pay identical municipal taxes.