Charlie Rose Science Series
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Hot, Flat, and Crowded: Why We Need a Green Revolution--and How It Can Renew America
by Thomas L. Friedman
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by Thomas L. Friedman
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08/22/2007
Joel Klein
A conversation with Joel Klein, chancellor of the New York City Department of Education
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A conversation with Joel Klein, chancellor of the New York City Department of Education.
DVD
Charlie Rose DVDs on Amazon.
Charlie Rose DVDs on Amazon.
Audio
Audio available through Audible.com.
Audio available through Audible.com.
Transcripts
Transcripts available through Voxant.
Transcripts available through Voxant.
The people who have commented below need to understand is that the purpose of Charlie Rose's show, as far as i can tell, is to give a platform for experts to give their opinions. If you want to hear tough questions you would have to watch something like the Meet the Press (or at least before Tim Russert passed away). And I wanted to comment on the many teachers and parents who are complaining about Mr.Klein. I am sorry, but one parent or one teacher's opinion on the public school system is not reliable what so ever. Students are the only ones who know what makes a better school system because they are the ones which we base the success of a school system on. But no one seems to ask them what they think will make schools better. And I doubt any people who are currently in k-12 education commented on this wall...
I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in computer Science and Engineer Math; I have a proven track record, since 1999 teaching at-risk, MPS middle and high school students in math, language arts, and reading; raising the state assessments proficiency scores in the percentile range of 70s through 80s. At malcolm X Academy in 2002-2003 school year, they had some of the highest test scores in the nation and district in ten years. Because of these test scores, I was denied my teaching license after going through the Compton Fellowship Program to become a license teacher; I have been told by many experienced and seasoned MPS teachers that there is a city-wide conspiracy to don't raise the test scores at these predominate Black schools and don't license Black Math Teachers, especially if you are a Black male math teachers, because MPS do not want to see Black Math Teachers produce engineers, doctors, and scientist. It is believed that the State of Wisconsin main goal is to continue the multi-billion dollar Prison Industry, preparing and using Black men as free slave labor. I am interested in helping Dr Howard Fuller in the Education Equality Project; a matter of fact I am trying to find Dr Howard Fuller here in Milwaukee.
Interesting and raises questions, not the least of which is: When did the social contract become a business contract??
I'm so glad to live in Canada. When I hear policy makers talk about performance and accountability I have the eerie feeling it's talking about assessments and high stakes testing that measure those things that are easily measurable and condensed into a number. Learning is so much more than numbers and testing. This is so politically driven it's scary. Canada, for the most part has been able to avoid this but political influences will continue to ask schools to adopt a business model where the bottom line is $$ and numbers. Sad.
I enjoyed the interview and did extract from it a different concept; Joel Klein the person. He has the longest tenure of a Chancellor, is easily recognized by parents and students. While he is part of the most controversial upheavals in the NYC education system; he is a public servant and is working in stride with the mayor to upgrade the efficacy of the system and the expectations of the student and teacher performance. In a rather folksy interview, Mr. Klein puts his stuff out there and remarks on his meager level of tangibles while growing up and with the public school system he was able to secure a place in IVY's such as Columbia and Harvard and go on to be a very successful litigator and achieve his dream " NYC Chancellor". If he is a messenger to the 1.1 million students and their parents that anything is possible with a NYC education, it was a very valuable interview and dissemination of a person's history to encourage others to overcome their hurdles and not make excuses. We need more talented teachers that are dedicated to the art of the profession, we need more parent involvement, we need prepared and students and we need to change the culture of the schools. Chancellor Klein and the Mayor have spent untold monies on advisors and programs and other methods of measure to insure a high quality education is available to every student. They should and have reached out for public comment, but they too heavily rely on paid consultants when parents and teachers and other pedagogues offer that from experience without cost.
NYC teachers union sends email telling people to comment negatively on this program, and boom, the negative comment stream above. Good interview.
There were questions I, too, would have like to have answered; however, I am glad to see any conversation about education as a starting point. The problems facing education are complex, and will not be adequately addressed by any one solution - or one interview for that matter. Reading the responses, I see the same simplistic blame game occurring. Administration, teachers, curriculum, parents, and students all play an EQUALLY important role in any successful school. I do agree that without a good teacher - all else is lost; however, there is obviously more to it than that. Mr. Klein was correct in saying this issue is the most important domestic problem today. While I was concerned about his lack of expertise in education, he had some good ideas - and ones that would naturally be criticized, especially in regards to pay differences and closing failing schools. He said he gave principals a lot of control over their schools, but I would have liked Mr. Rose to ask how much control the teacher has over their own classroom and teaching methods. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is if they are effectively hamstrung by their administrator. Most of the talented teachers in my district are leaving because they are being treated like trained monkies, being told not just what to teach, but precisely how, when, and at what pace, with no regard for the needs of the actual students. Mr. Klein also discussed the difficulties in dismissing a teacher who is not performing; perhaps a discussion about how hard it is to remove a persistantly disruptive student should come next! I give credit to Mr. Rose for discussing education, as long as the discussion is as periodic and lasting as those on Iraq and health care. As a former teacher, I know full well there are tough questions that need to be asked. I would love to see a round table discussion, as in the science series, with "all the players" involved.
I was so disappointed in the Klein/Rose lovefest. What happened to the tough questions? If Mr. Rose's staff had done their homework, they would know about the other Klein accomplishments: the adversarial relationship between administrators and teachers, the rampant micromanagement, the ebbing morale in the classroom. Instead, we got to see Klein bask in the glow- of what?
The problem with education as noble as the cause is the fact that large scale implementation of any cause turns into a huge burreucratic organization. In this situation just like any other large organization the motivation will go down in every level from students and parents to the board where we have a government attorney a bureaucrat who has little background in the business of education is running the system!! By the way many kids these days are too busy playing than willing to learn anything not to mention many who have low IQ to begin.....
Kline is a faux hero. He could not have gone anywhere else after the Justice Department and do the kind of diservice, which he is doing to our educational system. Where else could he find others like himself to help him cover up his incompetence, lack of talent and the fact that he has no educational experience in this field to speak of? Where else would he be allowed to use his position to bully, intimidate and disrespect those working in the trenches without any knowledge of what the reality is in those same trenches? If knowledge is central to a good education, then lets begin from the top down, and if bullying is not to be tolerated in the educational system, then lets begin there as well! Mr.Rose, I just had a wonderful idea. You could help your friend and begin a new trend by offering a rubuttal interview to those of us in the trenches. Mr. Klein might learn something and at the same time you might redeem yourself to those of us who were devout viewers of your show.
Mr. Rose, I challenge you to have a group of New York City public school teachers ranging from new hires to senior teachers, to disusss the impact of Joel Klein's Department of Education. Include parents and the students that are "graduating" in 5 and 6 years. I know you won't do. This interview was such a fluff piece that there was no integrity. Just what we need friends helping friends in the media. It is a good thing you are all lawyers.
Mr. Rose, I challenge you to have a group of New York City public school teachers ranging from new hires to senior teachers, to disusss the impact of Joel Klein's Department of Education. Include parents and the students that are "graduating" in 5 and 6 years. I know you won't do. This interview was such a fluff piece that there was no integrity. Just what we need friends helping friends in the media. It is a good thing you are all lawyers.
I watched the interview with my mouth opened wide in disgust. First of all, how can a teacher truly teach when all they are expected to do is to prep the students for the never ending demands of No Child Left Behind? The message from adminstration is very clear...meet the A.Y.P. at any and all costs, never mind teaching ... just make sure the children know how to take a TEST! Klein characterized senior teachers as being incompetent, and able to hide their incompetentcy with the help of the UFT. Fact is I know many a teacher that would never ask, "when's lunch?" because we are bogged down with so much work we don't have time to eat a meal in peace! He also makes the comment that "good" teachers must engage the student. Once again, I wonder how engaged I would be with a test practice book on my desk day after day? Klein wants to give merit pay to some teachers. How will that work? Will the teacher get the extra pay based on their ability to teach to the test? No, better yet, perhaps they will get the extra bucks by kissing up to the boss. A.R.I.S. promises alot! Surprise! More testing to measure how well the students take a test! When are teachers going to log on to this new system? Perhaps on their lunch periods!Don't forget the new science curriculum and guess what?? You guessed it...MORE TESTS!!!
Joel Klein is an American hero! Mr. Klein, in my opinion, should be the next Secretary of Education! I do not live in New York and I am not a teacher, so my point of view is relatively impartial. Here is a person who could have done anything after he left the Justice Department - he could have easily built a career as a corrporate lawyer, for instance. But rather, he decided to lend his talents to working on education in NYC. American education is broken - and all good people need to work on fixing it. Thankfully that is happening, even if the work is slow and difficult. Keep up the good work Mr. Klein! I am rooting for you!
I too was disappointed to see such arrogance from two wealthy men who have no experience in the classroom. I have been a long time fan of Charlie Rose but I feel let down after watching this program. Educating children has been my passion, as a teacher for 29 years I have been waiting for education to become a priority, I'm still waiting. My involvement in the union has been my only way to make change: smaller class sizes, more planning time, pay increases. I have a Master's Degree and am working to become a principal. My salary is $56,000 a year, this is what I receive for what I believe is THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB...TEACHING. Our society does not value its children, when that happens, then things will change. It's time to stop blaming teachers and unions. I want poor teachers out too and there is a way...follow the contract! Mr. Klein mentioned paying science and math teachers more than English teachers, what message does this send? If you really want to go there Mr. Klein than elementary teachers would be paid the most! Our 3 children are amazing young adults, we discouraged all of them from going into the teaching profession. We want them to be able to afford a home of their own, retirement savings, healthcare, and college for their children, that isn't happening for teachers at this time. It is a shame that in this great country, we don't know how to solve the problems that plague our educational system. It really is very simple, you get what you pay for. I hope that Mr. Rose will find the time to go help out in a public school classroom and talk with students teachers and parents to find out what is really going on.
We need the parents to take back there voice in the education system. The universities in the United States are some of the best education in the world. The primary, elementry, and high schools are in need of change. The difference in the in those two are freedom of choice.
Outrageous piece of work where a biased one-sided point of view is expressed. As someone who is very familiar with the NYC education scene (http://ednotesonline.com/), seeing this lack of balance makes me question every other report Mr. Rose presents. Mr. Rose should put together a panel of people like Leonie Haimson and Patrick Sullivan, NYC parents who have stood up to Mr. Klein and have exposed the major fault lines in his administration. Klein has lost the confidence of an overwhelming majority of teachers. In the so-called business model for education Klein is pushing, such a performance would lead the end of a CEO's tenure. Mr. Rose should include in his panel rank and file teachers (as opposed to union leaders who are as far away from the classroom as is Mr. Klein) who will provide a balanced picture of the level of devastation that has taken place in the schools under Mr. Klein's tenure.
As for Unions protecting bad workers... I've be a steward on the shop floor for 25 years and grassroots activist in the labour movement� private and public sector... for more than ten. In more than 90% of firings for poor performance cases the story is the same. The boss/management ignores poor performance for years. The organization/business grows and becomes more complex. The boss/management decides they need to replace the employee (who remember has always underperformed) and she is terminated. Here in BC (probably similar in the rest of Canada) Unions are legally required to represent their members� they can be sued under legislation for failing to do so properly. So the Union asks to see the employee�s file. And guess what: No evaluations for 10years, no notes of meetings to discuss any problems or expectations of improvement with time. I�m not sure of the legal requirements but there is an expectation by labour tribunals that employees deserve to be notified of problems and given a chance to improve their performance. So yes, it can take a bit of time, but it doesn�t have to take 3 years.
I went to the NYC school system. Except for one teacher, all the others were either poor or mediocre. I and my peers did fine. The problem in NYC and the other large cities is the change in demographics. To be specific, what is euphemistically called the 'inner city kids.' Many of them come fron dysfunctional families and communities: no father or male role model, no reinforcement for learning, ignorant moms, aunts and grandmothers. I teach at a university -- but, would not be able to deal with the 'inner city' youngsters. To be a black student in such a school and try to learn, one would risk being called "white," and get a beating from their peers. The teacher unions impair the learning process by being primariky concerned with their interests and avoid innovations. So, Joe Klein may be trying his best, And he succeeds in parts of the boroghs of Queens and Staten Island, whose students resemble the suburbs. The late, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan spoke of the dangerous trends that were occuring among minorities. He was called a racist. He was no racist, he was right! 75% of black births are illegitimate. When he advanced his theories, it was 25%. Whites have increased the rate as well. Klein may improve education to a small degee. But, it's not the teachers or the chancellor -- it's the family and community values. IT'S THE CULTURE! Let's get real!
I have just finished watching this segment here in BC Canada. My first view of Charlie Rose - his name came up when I was talking to friends about one of my favorites... KCTS's Bill Moyers. I must agree with many of the previous comments. Puff ball questions, fawning, and unquestioning acceptance of everything Klein said. While I don't know anything about the UFT, I do know that Union membership in the US has plummeted over the last approx 30 years or so, and Union power along with it. And Canada is following th same path. Through legislation and Modern so-called â??tradeâ?? agreements (more accurately â??investmentor protectionâ?? treaties) North America governments have completely subordinated the public good to that of private, commercial interests. NAFTA, FTAA, Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP), TILMA (BC & Alberta) all suggest that our provincial & federal governments believe that their role is to defend corporate interests from the laws that protect citizens. Perhaps thatâ??s because our political leaders are more & more from that same monied class. Think Bush, Clinton & Mulroney, Martin, etc.
Shame on you. I am at least happy to see I am not the only one dismayed by this interview. I was mostly horrified by the very confirming of my suspicions that Bloomberg and his administration would like to scapegoat teachers for everything wrong in the NYC schools. I beg of you Mr. Rose â?? come visit a school. See the teachers and students â?? and please, ask the students who they blame. Iâ??m almost certain most of them would not say their teachers. They might say its money, their principals, the mayor, or their environment. They are all a lot smarter than they are given credit for and are in a much better position than Mr. Klein to be discussing it with you in front of your viewership. Really â?? you yourself said it â?? no educational experience to speak of and a lawyer. Mr. Klein tells you they are adding schools â?? does he mention they are squeezing those schools into existing, overcrowded buildings? Does he explain that those schools are created with little planning and far too much willy-nilly control by inexperienced administrators? Mr. Klein tells you they are restructuring and raising accountability. Did he mention that means that special educators now have no where to turn and administrators who ignore the rights of students are now the highest power? You Mr. Rose admonish the UFT with little knowledge of their actions. Do you realize that the UFT is the only thing now protecting students and ensuring they donâ??t have too many students in their classes or are getting their entitlements under IDEA 2004? Anecdotes and research repeatedly show â?? teachers donâ??t want more money. Teachers need more support and to not have their hands tied by administrators, bureaucrats, and politicians who have no idea of the challenges facing our students. The students will tell you â?? teachers are the ones there with them, day in and day out, calling home, caring, forgiving, and pushing. Thankfully, students are who we work for â?? not Mr. Klein â?? and they often do appreciate us.
Mr. Rose: Teachers are not the answer- it does not matter much what the teacher does or says or how much the teacher is paid: culture is the primary factor in education. The biggest problem in schools that are 'failing' is the culture of the student population and the fact that their families set no expectations. A teacher may make a difference in one or two students, but, on the whole, culture is the prime mover. Fact: my children went to private school (Forsyth Country Day in NC and Gulfstream in FL)and could not gain entrance to UC Berkley or Stanford Universities, however, hundreds of Vietnamese kids who were terrorized in expulsion from Vietnam, refugee camps and pirates on the high seas were educated in our worst inter-city schools, yet they won scholarships based on their performance. Mind you, these students were not 'preferenced' to meet some quota, but were filtered to higher standards because their representation in the student population was much higher than in the general population. Joel just does not 'get' it. He could pay as much as he wants, but will not get expected results because of the culture.
Rose fed a half hour of soft ball questions to his long time friend who has no background whatever in education. Klein has driven NYC parents crazy with reorganizations, gone through about 5 Deputies for Teaching and Learning, turned major parts of our system over to Bill Gates (who also knows nothing about education) and completely removed parents from any influence in the education of their children. He has fudged test results and lowered the standards for graduation falsely making it appear that there has been improvement when there has been only a lot of noise. He has applied a one size fits all mentality to the entire system that is dragging good schools down. The latest reorganization gives all power to the principals, many of whom are clearly not up to the task.
Dear Mr. Rose: You need to compare Joel Klein's interview dated 9/4/2003 with today's interview. He is a "used car salesman" of the highest calibur. In 2003, Joel Klein talked about doing away with the "32" school districts and the "corruption". Guess what Charlie, starting September 2007 the "32" districts are back. Did the corruption change or is Mr. Klein creating another fraudulent/deceptive layer of bureaucracy? Klein said in 2003 that the "principals" were the main focus of the school and that his new principal leadership academy was the best. Every principal you speak to ( honestly) will tell you, this system is data driven and ties performance not to student sucess but how the school looks statisically. He gives principal's 10,000 to 50,000 bonus if they accomphlish this go al (not for the school but for their personal bank accounts). Administrators have tremendous pressure to use their budgets "wisely". How can this task be done "effectively"? Get rid of senior teachers with experience and hire "new" teachers. Klein's dirty secret, double the staff for less money. The more inexperience teaachers that principals can control, less challenge to their dicatorship. He wants to nickel and dime teachers. For example, a senior teacher making 80,000, that cares for students and knows her subject matter is a liability to a principal. Schools have turned into Castro's Cuba, and "off with their heads" with teachers that challenge the administrators "best practice". Teachersl providing a stable and nurturing environment promoting independent thinking and empowerment to the students are a huge threat. Klein wants adminstrators to find "problems" with these teachers,"U" rate them, and make up outrageous accusations. Then the big joke is when teachers grieve charges, Klein has hired his lawyer friends as the arbitrators for the "hearings". Thank God for unions or else teachers would have been "out sourced" already. Real fair Klein. The truth- for every senior teacher salary, you can hire two new teachers. Again, it is a matter of numbers not "the children". Simply, Klein rules by fear-and "budget" driven tactics. Klein continues to re-invent our education system and still has no success. I could go on with many more examples but Klein is "The Emperor with new clothes". Charlie, I hope you compare both interviews and see his "new clothes". It is ashame how Klein shared about his fond memories of a New York City public school teacher who changed his life. This teacher was probably a senior teacher with great passion. Today he spits on all teachers faces and cuts their throats. REAL NICE Mr Klein! P.S. I challenge you Charlie, to give equal time to the teachers.
Dear Mr. Rose: You need to compare Joel Klein's interview dated 9/4/2003 with today's interview. He is a "used car salesman" of the highest calibur. In 2003, Joel Klein talked out doing away with the "32" school districts and the "corruption". Guess what Charlie, starting September 2007 the "32" districts are back. Did the corruption change or is Mr. Klein creating another fraudulent/deceptive layer of bureaucracy? Klein said in 2003 that the "principals" were the main focus of the school and that his new principal leadership academy was the best. Every principal you speak to ( honestly) will tell you, this system is data driven and ties performance not to student sucess but how the school looks statisically. He gives principal's 10,000 to 50,000 bonus if they accomphlish this go al (not for the school but for their personal bank accounts). Administrators have tremendous pressure to use their budgets "wisely". How can this task be done "effectively"? Get rid of senior teachers with experience and hire "new" teachers. Klein's dirty secret, double the staff for less money. The more inexperience teaachers that principals can control, less challenge to their dicatorship. He wants to nickel and dime teachers. For example, a senior teacher making 80,000, that cares for students and knows her subject matter is a liability to a principal. Schools have turned into Castro's Cuba, and "off with their heads" with teachers that challenge the administrators "best practice". Teachersl providing a stable and nurturing environment promoting independent thinking and empowerment to the students are a huge threat. Klein wants adminstrators to find "problems" with these teachers,"U" rate them, and make up outrageous accusations. Then the big joke is when teachers grieve charges, Klein has hired his lawyer friends as the arbitrators for the "hearings". Thank God for unions or else teachers would have been "out sourced" already. Real fair Klein. The truth- for every senior teacher salary, you can hire two new teachers. Again, it is a matter of numbers not "the children". Simply, Klein rules by fear-and "budget" driven tactics. Klein continues to re-invent our education system and still has no success. I could go on with many more examples but Klein is "The Emperor with new clothes". Charlie, I hope you compare both interviews and see his "new clothes". It is ashame how Klein shared about his fond memories of a New York City public school teacher who changed his life. This teacher was probably a senior teacher with great passion. Today he spits on all teachers faces and cuts their throats. REAL NICE Mr Klein! P.S. I challenge you Charlie, to give equal time to the teachers.
We need to develop more learning games. How come video games can capture the attention of our young and hold it, while our schools can not? A kid will play a segment of a game over and over again to get to a certain level and then brag about it to his friends. If repetition is the Mother of learning, how come we can not put some electronic fun into our children's learning experience? Let's partner with the Japanese gamers to come up with some real learning devices. We are losing our young people through boredom. The question should be asked, "How can 'No child left behind' be improved?" Tom Boyle Democratic candidate for President.
Mr. Rose, I've been a fan of your show for many years. It's a welcome change to watch a show that is willing and able to devote uninterrupted time to important topics that concern American's today. I was dismayed however, during your interview with Joel Klein this evening, that you would accept, without question, the so-called facts he delivered regarding charter schools in New York city and the purported success they have achieved. Let's get straight to the point: this is about money, or the lack thereof for public education in this country since Republicans targeted this government program for extinction. Mr. Klein stated that the Gates foundation contributed $130,000,000 to this initiative, along with other unreported donations. It's not about choice, it's about adequately funding and supporting our public schools! The founders of this great country realized the importance and necessity of providing an education for all children, what inspired you to believe that the Republican party has divined more wisdom than these great American patriots? Respectfully, Eric Hansen
Dear Mr. Rose, I am disappointed with the level of inquiry on Charlie Rose's part in interviewing Joel Klein. This interview (Aug 22) is not up to the standards of Charlie Rose's expertise on the arts or politics. I feel this is endemic of America's relationship with education. It is an extremely complex dynamic system that is NOT business, non-profit, or the arts. Lately, eduction has been forced into models that do not fit its many demands or societal expectations. Educators' core work is with complex human beings with varied backgrounds. Their goal is bulfilling human potential. This focus is what is missing from the debate I am hearing. I challenge Charlie Rose to learn more about the education challenge and to have "regular teachers" on his show, i.e can you not talk to the elite but those in the trenches, where the real work of any reform is done. I feel it will humble all. Sincerely, Kathleen Blakeslee P.S. I am a public school teacher in Houston TX, and an avid fan of Charlie Rose, who let me down tonight.
Joel Klein is terrific!!!
Wednesday, August 22 Once again Joel Klein beat up on the teachers and the UFT contract and gave figures that are suspect. Talk to any teacher about this tyrannical administration with teachers leaving in droves from the hate, micro managing and mismanagement by principals who will lie about and insult teachers in a system that is not transparent by any measurement. It's immoral for principals to get up to $50,000 for destroying careers of excellent teachers. Remember it's his DOE that hires the teachers in the first place. There is no real way for teachers to get the word out as to how mean-spirited and dictatorial this system has become. When is the last time you read or saw or heard a story on how bad this administration is and how low the morale is in the school system. It's there but voices are immediately silenced. Klein says one thing but teachers know that the school system is becoming the MacDonald's employment for the well educated.