CHARLIE ROSE: Mohamed ElBaradei is here. After 12 years as director- general of the United Nations nuclear watchdog, the International Atomic Energy Agency, he will step down at the end of this month. His tenure has been marked by historic events. In 2003, he found no evidence that Iraq was rebuilding its nuclear weapons program. In 2005, he and the IAEA were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for working to prevent nuclear proliferation and promoting the safe use of nuclear energy. Long a proponent of dialogue, he witnessed the first talks in 30 years between Iran and the United States in Geneva last month. He is now involved in the draft agreement between Iran, the United States, Russia and France to process Iran’s uranium stockpiles outside the country. There are reports today that progress on the deal is being held up by Iran’s ongoing internal political crisis. This week, Dr. Elbaradei called the current moment a unique and fleeting opportunity to reverse course from confrontation to cooperation with Iran. We want to talk about all of that, and I am very pleased to have him back at this table. Welcome. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Charlie, it is great to be here again. CHARLIE ROSE: All right. Let me just start -- tell me where you think the moment is. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, the moment is a historic critical moment, Charlie, that this is for the first time I see a genuine desire by the president of the United States and by the Iranian leadership to engage in a genuine dialogue. It’s after 50 years of animosity, of distrust. And that’s why we have this difficulty today. The fuel deal is a symbolic gesture, but it could be the first step in a broad dialogue that eventually could integrate Iran with the rest of the international community to the benefit of the United States, to the benefit of Iran. We are trying to make that step, you know, move forward. And I think Barack Obama is stretching backward, frankly, to engage Iran. And I have been saying to the Iranian leadership privately and publicly, make use of that opportunity, reciprocate. Right now, that deal is -- still hinges on the question of guarantees, you know. The Iranians are distrustful that if their material will go out of Iran, they might not get it back in the form of fuel, despite the fact that we have been having as part of that agreement and built in a lot of guarantees. The Russians are guaranteeing the implementation. The Americans are ready for the first time to guarantee the implementation. The agency will take custody of this material, so the international community as a whole will guarantee ... CHARLIE ROSE: Your agency. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: My -- IAEA will take custody of the material when it goes back until it comes back to Iran. So there is a lot of built-in guarantees. But the Iranians still would like to see the material stay in Iran until they get the fuel. Well, that will not diffuse the crisis, because to get the material out of Iran will diffuse this perception that Iran has material that could be used for nuclear weapon. It will give Barack Obama the space, you know, to negotiate in a calmer environment. I have been proposing -- and everybody has been trying to be creative -- I have been proposing to get the material into a third country. Turkey, for example, a country where Iran has full trust, you know, and keep it there until they get the fuel. I still think we need to continue to hammer at that deal, because that deal is not -- it is not just about the humanitarian assistance, it’s not just about the fuel to a reactor in Iran. It’s about the first step in a very long growth toward finally normalization between Iran and the United States after 50 years, as I said, of warring, you know, warring parties just doing damage to each other. Iran could be a very positive element in the stable Middle East. Iran could be absolutely essential to stability in Afghanistan, in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Palestinian territories. CHARLIE ROSE: Do you think they want that? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think they want, and they ... CHARLIE ROSE: To be a force for stability. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think they made it clear to me that if they work as partner with the United States, they want to help in Afghanistan, in Iraq and Syria and Lebanon, in the Palestinian territory. They made that clear more than once to me. And that is -- that is -- that’s where the big picture comes into play, Charlie. That if -- if there is a meaningful engagement, if there is really all the grievances are put on the table, Iran could be, of course there will be a discussion what are the red lines, what the Iran can do, what the U.S. can do and cannot do. You know, but eventually Iran could be a positive force in stability in the Middle East. CHARLIE ROSE: But as you know, many people worry that they do not want to be or cannot be a force for stability as long as they are giving the kind of support they are to Hamas and to Hezbollah. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, sure, Charlie. These are issues that have been to be put on the table, you know, what support Iran should give to who, you know. And Iranians also have their grievances. But all this has to be put into the jackpot, if you like. And we should be able to find a package that reconciles the differences and be able to have Iran coexist with the United States. They might agree to disagree on certain issues. But there is a bigger issue that we need -- we need to -- we need to engage. I mean ... CHARLIE ROSE: Go ahead. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That stability, the Middle East is in a total mess right now. And it is becoming gradually radicalized, you know, the so- called moderate regimes are losing credibility. And we need to stop that fight. And Iran I think is the gate to hopefully beginning of stability of the Middle East. When you engage a regime, I always believe that, Charlie, is that’s how you change behavior. You know, there is a lot of activities by Iran people disapprove of, but that’s not going to happen by not talking to them, you know. And ... CHARLIE ROSE: But who is stopping them from talking? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, I think, well, in the past six years, during the Bush administration... CHARLIE ROSE: Oh, I know, but that is past. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah, that is past. CHARLIE ROSE: The Obama administration has no preconditions to talk. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think -- correct, absolutely. And that is finally when I started to see a real, genuine hope of getting Iran engaged. In fairness, Iran has tried during the Bush administration more than once to engage the Americans. There was no appetite for that. Right now, it is -- the ball is in the Iranian court. They need to engage. Unfortunately, right now there is a lot of internal turmoil. Everybody is outbidding the other. And I have been telling them privately and publicly, "Look at the big picture. You need to engage the U.S. You need to engage the rest of the international community. It really is in your long-term interest." There is a lot of pride issues, there’re a lot of dignity issues. But this is all things that one can work -- work it out, you know. But at the end of the day, I hope that they will understand that, you know, their long-term interest is not to continue to be at odds with the most of the international community, but fully engaged with the United -- with the international community, and the United States is the one who can do the heavy lifting. There is no question about that. CHARLIE ROSE: You mentioned the election. What impact do you think it’s having on in terms of any debate about the nuclear issue within Iran? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think because of the division, as I’m not a student of the domestic politics in Iran, but because of that, as I said, as a ... CHARLIE ROSE: They now have visible competing forces. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Competing forces, clearly. And they are using the nuclear issue, even the fuel issue, which is a technical issue, which is everybody should be happy to move on that issue. Because everybody understands that, that having Iran at peace with the United States will be to the benefit, definitely of Iran and the United States. But it is now, everybody is getting into a payback situation, frankly, the way I see it, the way I read the paper. Everybody is trying to outbid the other by turning that issue into a national pride issue. It is not a national pride issue. It’s an issue that should be focused on as a technical issue, as the beginning of a trust building between Iran and the rest of the international community. CHARLIE ROSE: But the fact is, one more time is that the Iranians are delaying the conversation. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, the Iranians -- the Iranians right now are continuing to say we need more guarantees. We need to keep the fuel in Iran until we get -- we keep the -- our material in Iran until we get the fuel. CHARLIE ROSE: What guarantees do they want? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, to keep their own stuff in Iran until they get the manufactured fuel back. In other words ... CHARLIE ROSE: Oh, I see. So, in other words, they get the fuel rods back... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah, it’s a swap. CHARLIE ROSE: It’s a swap. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: They want a swap and not send their material out to come back in the ... (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: So they will give you some of the material now, you make it into fuel rods, send it back, we will give you more materials, is that the way it works? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: No, they don’t want to give me any material. They want to wait until they get the fuel, you know, manufactured by different material, say Russian material ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: ... and that of course defeats the whole purpose of that agreement. Because the whole purpose of that agreement ... CHARLIE ROSE: So, what does that say to you that they want to take that tact? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, it says that they are, as a result, I believe, of all the domestic different political views, the domestic competing forces, that everybody is taking to me the high moral ground. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: But this is not a solution. It’s -- you have to take risk for peace, as I told them. And they are not taking really much risk at all. I mean, they are basically saying, you know, you know, we are ready to take five percent risk in return for 100 percent, you know, opening the door into Iran, stable Iran, accepted as a regional power. That is really what it is all about. Iran wants to be accepted as a regional power, as the most regional power in the region. And the -- there’s an opportunity for them now to be accepted by the United States, by the international community. CHARLIE ROSE: What is the evidence they are not accepted as a regional power? Israel is scared to death of them. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, in a way yes, but they want to be accepted by the United States, not as a scarecrow... CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: But as a partner. They want to be -- they have told me more than once that -- we acknowledge the U.S. to be the global power but we want to be acknowledged by the United States as a regional power and be a partner. But of course being a partner means to have to -- to have to accept certain, you know, restrictions, certain dialogues, certain no’s and yes’s and that --that ... CHARLIE ROSE: And certain behaviors as required of a community. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Of course, of course. And they have to explain their behavior on certain issues. They have to, you know, they have to get engaged. CHARLIE ROSE: Well, what is interesting about this is you almost believe that if you could somehow -- all negotiations seem to me to be, come down to pride and fear. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Absolutely. CHARLIE ROSE: Pride and fear. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Absolutely. CHARLIE ROSE: Our pride as a regional power, our fear that somehow you will do something to us or won’t respect us. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Correct. That you will either, you know, that whatever we will do will be seen as compromising our pride or you are going to trick us, you know. And we understand that. And I understand that. CHARLIE ROSE: But who has more evidence of being tricked, they or those countries that are anxious for them not to have a nuclear weapon? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, I think again they continue to say that we are not going to have nuclear weapons. They, I believe that they want -- I mean, they are very keen, of course, to develop the technology to have nuclear weapons, you know, that can enable them to have that, which means the enrichment, you know, having the nuclear material. I’m not sure they want to go all the way to develop nuclear weapons. But by having the technology, Charlie, they are sending the message to their neighbors, which you said are afraid of them, to the rest of the world, that don’t mess up with us. And in a way, we still live, unfortunately, in a world if you have the technology, you have power, prestige, you provide yourself an insurance policy. And I think that’s what the Iranians are after. We are -- this is -- they use the nuclear as a means to an end, which is, as I said, final recognition by the U.S. CHARLIE ROSE: So, some way you could say to them there is a way for you to have the prestige and the power. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: And all that you want without having nuclear weapons ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: That would unlock... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think so. And in my -- in my view, in the long- term, the whole issue, the whole nuclear issue will wither away. Because I still see there as a means to an end. If they get what -- the recognition ... CHARLIE ROSE: But how do we do that? How does -- not we, but how do people who are negotiating with them do that? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That is where we wanted to get this fuel issue settled, agreed. Barack Obama made it very clear that the second phase will be to negotiate not only the nuclear issue, but economic issues, human rights issues, trade issues. And then, all right, then you will get accepted as a regional power, not as a feared power but as an accepted regional power. As a partner for peace, you know, which as you -- you rightly said, requires certain behavior on both sides. And that could only be -- could happen if the parties sit together and do that. CHARLIE ROSE: What do they say when you sit with them and you say, listen, you know, you have -- you have misled us. You have been deceptive. You have not been transparent. You have not been forthcoming, so why shouldn’t the United States and France and the Soviet Union be distrustful of your intentions? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: They will tell you that, you know, look what happened to us in 1953 when the CIA and, you know, and the MI6, the British intelligence unseated the first national elected government, Mosaddeq. They tell you that we have been under sanctions since the revolution because people don’t like our ideology. I mean, they have their own, their own, you know, justification of why they feel that they have been mistreated, isolated. And well, there are, you know, rights or wrongs on both sides, there is no question about it. But ... CHARLIE ROSE: Because they are two different things. Aren’t they? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. But I think what Barack Obama ... CHARLIE ROSE: They took Americans hostage. That’s a different thing. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Of course ... CHARLIE ROSE: Everybody has a grievance on that level, it has nothing to do with the nuclear. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: No, that’s correct. And they are saying that we do not want nuclear weapons. But of course, they have -- they did not -- they created a trust deficit, you know, by cheating on us, you know, by cheating on the verification process. And -- and I ... CHARLIE ROSE: Why did they say they do it? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, they said we have done that because if we would have told you in time, we would not have been able to get the equipment. You know, you remember they got the equipment through the A.Q. Khan network, and they said if we would have told you, you know, we would have gotten zero equipment because we are under sanction. I mean, there are -- there are arguments. But the best thing is to forget about the arguments ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: As Barack Obama is saying, let’s look at the future. You know, we can regurgitate the past for as much as we can, but it’s not going to solve any issues. Let us start to build trust and be systematically in taking one step after another. CHARLIE ROSE: Legally they have the right to enrich uranium, don’t they? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Legally they have the right to rich uranium the way Japan, Brazil, Germany, the 13, 14 countries are having the right to enrich. CHARLIE ROSE: So, what don’t they have the right to do? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: To develop nuclear weapons. CHARLIE ROSE: OK, but they can take it right up to the point, legally ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: They -- they can take it right up to ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right up to within ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right up to the point when they have the know-how. You know, and any country that have the enrichment capability or capacity, Charlie, is able to do nuclear weapons, to manufacture nuclear weapons in a matter of months. And that is really why I have been saying that if you really want a system that is, you know, provides genuine security, no country should have the right to enrich on its own or have plutonium on its own. In other words, the material you have, you can use for nuclear weapons, but have that at the multinational control. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That’s the only way. Because, all right, I mean now Brazil is a country nobody is questioning. Japan is a country nobody questioning. And Germany is a country ... CHARLIE ROSE: Those are three countries that have the possibility. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, and Holland ... CHARLIE ROSE: And the knowledge. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: ... and Argentina does, you know. CHARLIE ROSE: How many are there that within months could have nuclear weapons if they wanted to? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, you have the nine weapon states, which already have nuclear weapons ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: But you have a number of others. You have Argentina, you have Brazil, you have Japan, you have Germany, you have Holland. I mean, there -- and you have ... CHARLIE ROSE: They all could be -- have nuclear weapons within months. They have the ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: They have the capacity. They have the capacity. CHARLIE ROSE: They have the enriched material ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: ... and they have the know-how. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right, exactly. And that is -- that’s, as I said, it’s a margin of security, too close for comfort. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And that Iran brought that issue to the surface, you know, can we live under that system of security that you go all the way and then you say, you know, I’m not developing nuclear weapon, which is fine. But if your security perception changes in the next couple of months, you know, you are able to -- you know, so the system is very fragile. And if we -- we need to deal with Iran, because, of course, there is a lot of question about its future intention. But future intention applies to every country. It’s a question of how much I trust the country, you know, and that’s -- it really is in the eyes of the beholder. It is based on, you know, regime behavior also. But the best is not to rely on just future intention reading, you know, reading the card. But is to not to enable any country to have the technology that can enable them to have nuclear weapon in a matter of months. That’s to me is a long-term solution. That’s... CHARLIE ROSE: So in the long-term solution, you would take it away from Japan, you take it away from Argentina ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: From everybody ... CHARLIE ROSE: ... you take it away from Holland, you take it away from Germany, from all of them. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And I take it away from all the weapon states. If Barack Obama now is talking about a world free from nuclear weapons. I mean, that should be an integral part of this new structure which everybody talks about. A world free from nuclear weapons. If you are going to do that, as then the whole multinational, you have to multinationalize the entire fuel cycle. No country should have the right to do enrichment or reprocessing. It will be all under multinational control, regional control, what you call it. CHARLIE ROSE: To Iran for a second. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yes. Sure. CHARLIE ROSE: And the fear is that while they talk and they find reasons to delay and delay, they are getting closer and closer to the point they want to be . So they are exactly where Germany is or Japan is. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Not ... CHARLIE ROSE: And once they get there, they can say, a-ha, too late, folks. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Sure. It’s -- they are not there in terms of the capacity, you know. But they, of course, in the last few years developed the semi-industrial capacity, I should say right now. And that’s why the earlier we engage in dialogue -- we could have done -- we could have stopped, you know, that program six years ago when Iran was ready to stop at research and development phase, you know. But at that time, nobody wanted to talk to them. Because they were part of the axis of evil, you know. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And later on, they put an impossible condition to accept for Iran to accept, saying suspend everything before we negotiate. Well, that’s the whole purpose of negotiation. The outcome should be ... CHARLIE ROSE: So you think we really missed an opportunity. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: We mismanaged six years of dealing with Iran. And right now, you know, Iran, six years ago had ... CHARLIE ROSE: But it always takes two to tango, as they say. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah, but I must say, as I say, in fairness at least to Iran, I mean they have always said we are ready to negotiate. We are ready to talk. Whether they were serious or not, but at least they made the offer verbally through the Swiss, through myself. I mean, a number of times always said we’re ready to discuss everything. There was no -- there was no other side. CHARLIE ROSE: But as you know, somebody will always say but they had the secret facility. We didn’t know about the secret facility. Why wouldn’t they -- if they want to talk, why don’t they disclose? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, that is also again ... CHARLIE ROSE: And if they have one secret facility, why don’t we -- why don’t they have -- why don’t we assume they have seven? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Charlie, it is again symptomatic of the environment of total distrust. The answer I get, are of course they are on the wrong side of the law. They have violated our regulations, they should have told us from the day they decided to build that facility. But the answer is when I hear every day that I’m going to be bombed, you know, what am I going to do. I have to build a bunker to protect my technology. Whether that is true or not, but that is, you know, at least they have the pretext to say that, and I wish people to stop saying we are going to use force. Because it provides pretexts. I hope Iran, of course, should have ... CHARLIE ROSE: Nobody said they are going to bomb them. They just said there is an option on the table. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well -- But I mean an option on the table, if you say there is every option all the time, I mean it’s implicitly -- and there was a lot of discussion that the Israelis, you know, there is the deadline, timeline. And it is not good. Because the solution is not a military, there is no military solution, you know. It would -- it could only delay the Iranian program. In fact, if there is, Iran were to be bombed, and even if Iran were not really going for a nuclear weapon, I bet everything they will go for a crash course to develop nuclear weapon if they were bombed. You know, so there is no military solution. You have to -- we have to find a solution by which the international community is -- have confidence that Iran is not developing nuclear weapon, and that requires a lot of confidence building measures, a lot of talk. CHARLIE ROSE: But put yourself in Israeli standpoint -- or position for a second. You know, you say the fear is that a nuclear weapon will get into the hands of a terrorist. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: I say that too. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. Right. CHARLIE ROSE: And the Israelis said they hear someone who says their leader, their president, their elected president says we want to wipe you off the face of the earth. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: We’ll wipe you off the face of the earth. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: That is what the Israelis hear. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: There’s -- absolutely ... CHARLIE ROSE: That is an extremist group, as far as they’re concerned. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: There is a lot of -- there’s a lot of regrettable statement made overtime, there is a lot of offensive statement made overtime. And that’s why we have -- I heard -- I mean, there’s any statement to say that we’ll wipe any country off the face of the earth, is, of course extremely offensive, anybody question the Holocaust.... CHARLIE ROSE: No, we don’t recognize you as a country. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That is -- that is offensive. But I, you know, I have lived to hear Menachem Begin, you know, in Jerusalem once saying there is no such thing as the Palestinian people. Well, it is the same person who did peace later on. So we should try to sometimes overcome, you know, you know, statements and try really to focus on issues. And the Israelis, I understand their fear. But they also should understand that, you know, look from the other side, and the Arab fears that they are -- that the Israelis are sitting on a nuclear program, and all of them are sort of, you know, helpless, vis-a-vis the Israeli threat. So it -- threat is in the eyes of the beholder. And as I said, that is why my hope is that to finally have peace and security in the Middle East, where a Middle East free of all weapons of mass destruction including any weapon in Israel, including any possible capacity in Iran, and start to shift gear, you know, to be able to live together as one as well -- a part of one human family, Charlie. CHARLIE ROSE: When you look at where we are today, you say that if somebody uses military force against Iranians, every Iranian all the way to Los Angeles ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: ... where there is a community of Iranians ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: ... would be opposed to it and would rise up and have nationalistic spirit, correct? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. (CROSSTALK) MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: That’s your belief? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: Secondly, you say sanctions will not work. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: Because they do too much, you say ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: ... pain on the wrong people. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. Right. Correct. CHARLIE ROSE: So we don’t negotiate. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Correct. I mean, we -- we have to put focus in my view, on a meaningful dialogue first. And try and exhaust every possibility to reach an agreement through dialogue, you know. You might, if you exhaust all that and you have no, you know, you have no, you are not moving forward and you’re still having an imminent threat, you know, obviously you have the tools of sanctions. But we talk about smart sanctions. I haven’t seen yet these smart sanctions. I have seen sanctions that, frankly, are hurting the innocent and the vulnerable, you know. And I am not a great fan of sanctions, but if you have sanctions, you have to apply it to the regime. And how much you can apply to a regime -- we’ve seen it in the case of Saddam Hussein, who was a horrible dictator, he made use of the sanctions, you know, and it was really the innocent Iraqis who died in the process, you know. Milosevic... CHARLIE ROSE: So, sanctions against Hussein was a bad idea? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: It was a bad idea the way it was applied, you know. Because if you have to -- you have to develop a sanction where you - - you really target the government, you know, responsible for the bad things. CHARLIE ROSE: So, what kind of sanction does that? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I don’t know. I mean, ban of travel, freezing of assets. But frankly, that doesn’t really impact on the regime, you know. A few ... CHARLIE ROSE: Some of those things have already been done. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: Freezing assets. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And if you have the crippling sanctions, then -- then you’re hurting everybody on society, except the government that is responsible for whatever you are ... (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: And they don’t feel the pain. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And they don’t ... CHARLIE ROSE: Because their people do not have the power to overthrow them. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Right. CHARLIE ROSE: Sanction -- sanction was designed in 1945 to apply to democratic societies that, you know, a government does something bad, then you apply sanctions, then the people will be able to change the government. Historically, all sanctions has been applied against authoritarian regimes, so the people are totally helpless. So, then the use of force. Of course, the use of force is not -- it is part of the U.N. collective security and you can use force sometime. But -- but you have to understand what is objective of using force. I mean, you cannot use force unless you are really facing an imminent threat when you have no other option but to use force. But force in many cases does not -- does not solve the problem. The Israeli, you know, bombed, the Iraqi research reactor in 1981, you know, they were quite happy and people said they, you know, nipped a danger. But what they don’t say, that in 1982, a year after Saddam Hussein went into underground with a huge mammoth undeclared nuclear weapon program. So you can delay, as Bob Gates said, you know, a couple of ... CHARLIE ROSE: Couple of years. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: ... couple of weeks, yeah, a couple of years ... CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, he said years, right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: But it comes back to haunt you later on. CHARLIE ROSE: That’s right. But here is where you are, though. And I’m interested in where you think Iran might be. If all Iran wants is to be respected and to be viewed by the United States as a power in the region, you know, and perhaps to do whatever it has to do to gain that respect, if, in fact it’s up to them to decide they have received that respect, the ball is totally in their court. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think that’s correct. I think that is -- the ball is totally in their court right now. There is a hand stretched to them by Barack Obama administration, by him personally, you know. I think they need to reciprocate. They need to also show that they are ready to take, you know, start building trust. And as part of that, of course, they have to assure the international community that they have no intention. I mean, they keep saying we have no intention of developing nuclear weapons, but we need to build up concrete confidence-building measures, robust inspection, you know, capacity of nuclear program, what have you?. They need to take concrete steps. But you cannot just continue to say well, we need to be trusted. I mean, you have to do some, you know, work to be trusted. You know. CHARLIE ROSE: Though a lot of words have been tried to get them to see this ... MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: ... and it hasn’t worked so far. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. It’s -- unfortunately right now also, the aftermath of the election I think is complicating things, Charlie, the way I see it, but that is why I am -- I am advising for some patience. Let the dust settle. Let them hopefully see the light at the end of the tunnel. And the light is you have to engage. You have to work to build trust. And the ball is in your court. CHARLIE ROSE: But my perception is that the president said to the Israelis, look, the Israelis for one example, we’ve got to give them until the end of the year to see what progress can be made before anybody talks about any other kind of action, whatever it might be, right? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah, I think that’s ... (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: If you talk about are they going to settle down this question of the election crisis by then? Are they going to come to some idea that it is in their interest to do this between now and the end of the year? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I hope so, there is a lot of -- I mean I can’t -- I can’t really read the, you know, the crystal ball, but there is a lot of intensive discussion in Iran. I’m in contact with Iranians every single day, you know. And basically preaching, you know, to them to convert if you like, you know, to understand that the world is not going to wait forever. You need to take some reciprocal steps. I still have some hope. I don’t know how to -- but we still have a couple of months, and hopefully that -- if we get that deal, and as I said, I’m still working on this idea of a third country, you know, as a compromise, you know. Put them ... CHARLIE ROSE: Turkey? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Turkey. Put them ... CHARLIE ROSE: So it is not Russia, it is not France, it is Turkey. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: It is Turkey. Exactly. CHARLIE ROSE: It has to be Turkey because it’s a Muslim country or what? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, I think Iran has a very close relationship with Turkey. They really -- they trust Turkey. It could be Turkey, it could be Kazakhstan. It could be any country ... CHARLIE ROSE: But let’s take Turkey, for example. Would the United States and everybody else trust Turkey to be the repository in this? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: The U.S. is very comfortable with Turkey. I can tell you that. I mean I ... CHARLIE ROSE: And so -- when you advanced this idea, what do the Iranians say then? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, they are still discussing it. They say we would like to keep it on our territory, but I said that defeats the whole purpose of diffusing the crisis, because we need to get the material out to eliminate the perception that you could develop nuclear weapon tomorrow or yesterday. So I am still pushing on this idea of Turkey, Charlie. I don’t know whether I will succeed, but I can tell you the U.S. is very comfortable with Turkey. Iran has a lot of trust in Turkey, and it should work. CHARLIE ROSE: There is some people, though, who listen to you and say I have enormous respect for Mohamed ElBaradei. He is a good and wise man. However, you know, there is nothing can be said. There is no reason to believe that there are any words that can change. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That’s correct. CHARLIE ROSE: Does part of you believe that? I mean, does part of you believe there’s nothing -- in the end -- we have to keep trying, but there is nothing that will cause them to be able to change their mind about what is in their national interest? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, this -- the Iranian society is a very -- is a -- there is a diffusion of power in Iran, Charlie. It is not like the Arab world, where you have one strong person who can decide things, you know. Iran is a very multipowered society. And there is a lot of debates going on. You know, and that also, you know, we have to give them time to ventilate their different views. But I still -- I still believe that, you know, I still believe that at the end of the day, they will come to the right decision. I mean, what I hear -- I had ... CHARLIE ROSE: Why do you believe that? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Because I hear a lot of them. And I -- over the years saying this person -- this -- who is going to have a full package with the U.S., full, you know, normalization with the U.S. is going to be a national hero. I mean, that is you hear it in the streets of Tehran. You hear it among the leadership. Everybody tells you that whoever is going to make a full peace with the U.S. is going to be a national hero. Because they know that the majority of the Iranian people would like to see full normal relationship with the U.S. CHARLIE ROSE: But it is said that we -- the United States is popular among the...? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: It is quite popular. It’s unlike ... CHARLIE ROSE: Populace at large. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. It is unlike the Arab world, when the ... CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: When the people are angry with the U.S. and the leadership are friendly. It’s the other way around in Iran. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: And I think all the leadership understand that. And I hear sometimes that what you see right now is someone who is going to take credit for that, you know, dialogue with the U.S.? So I can-- I can vouch on it, I cannot say that we will be able finally to, you know, to get everybody, and there is a lot of hard-liners there who are never going to change. But I hope the moderates, you know, whatever -- however you define it, will take, will -- will -- will prevail and understand that long-term interests. And understand that they need not just assure the U.S. -- need to assure the neighbors, they need to assure the Israelis. They need to assure all the countries in the region that they are ready to coexist in peace with them. The neighbors also should -- should really get off the fence. I mean, the neighbors are not really engaged at all. You know, and it’s Arab neighbors that have been telling them for, you know, just don’t leave it -- leave it to the U.S. and the Europeans, get engaged, because this is at the end of the day is your regional security. CHARLIE ROSE: And you are going to be retired? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I’m going supposedly to be retired, Charlie. Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: Maybe not? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, I retire from this job, but I will continue to speak on some of these issues, because some of these issues has to do with our own very survival, you know. And I will at least would like to continue to speak on this issues. CHARLIE ROSE: When you look at what has happened, is the most important thing that has changed not on the Iranian side but that there are no conditions from the American side? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: Is that the most important new reality? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: I think so. I think so. I think that is really a game changer, if you like. You know, that the message to Iran, we are ready to sit with you without any condition. And that happened twice, you know. That, you know, last -- last month, you know, there was a meeting. It was between Bill Burns ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. And what came out of that? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Well, what I was told, it was quite a good meeting, quite a constructive meeting. That the big meeting was not really the greatest... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: ... the bilateral meeting was very good. I had another meeting in Vienna, between, you know, again, Dan Poneman, you know ... CHARLIE ROSE: Right. Right. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: ... and his Iranian counterpart. And that was also quite good. The Iranians are very interested, I can tell you, in the bilateral dialogue with the U.S. CHARLIE ROSE: So is North Koreans. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Yes. Exactly. I mean, that is not necessarily with the rest of the world, but primarily with the owner of the store. You know. CHARLIE ROSE: That is what it is about. Isn’t it? MOHAMED ELBARADEI: That is what it is about, absolutely. CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for coming. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Thank you very much, Charlie for having me. CHARLIE ROSE: It is a pleasure to see you. MOHAMED ELBARADEI: Same here. CHARLIE ROSE: Back in a moment. Stay with us.