CHARLIE ROSE: James Watson is here. He is, as you know, the godfather of genetics. In 1953, he and Francis Crick discovered the structure of DNA. Their achievement changed biology forever and earned them each a Nobel Prize. During the 1980s, Watson took part in the human genome project. In 2007, he became the second person to publish his fully sequenced genome online. He was also the director of the Cold Springs Harbor Laboratories from 1968 until 2003 when he became chancellor. He stepped down from that role in 2007. I am pleased to have him here on this program one more time, to explore whatever is on his mind. Welcome. Let’s talk first about cancer. You said my primary interest now is cancer. JAMES WATSON: Yes. I think about it in the middle of the night. (LAUGHTER) JAMES WATSON: You know, (INAUDIBLE), but you know, we might finally crack it. CHARLIE ROSE: Really? JAMES WATSON: Yes. Largely now that we have the human genome project, you know, done. We know what’s wrong in cancer. I mean, it’s a hundred things, but all cancers have one of their faces the same. And that is involving energy. So you know, when cancer is really bad, they are metastatic in your body and they are dividing much too fast, they are very vulnerable to being attacked by the right drugs. And... CHARLIE ROSE: As we found with Gleevec. JAMES WATSON: Yes. And that stopped the sort of signal to divide, but this is a sort of signal to live. I mean, in the sense of you have to have a molecule called ATP to make energy. And you’ve got to make all the building blocks, so any time you go from one to two cells, you’ve got to make new body parts. And so, they have a different metabolism from your liver or your kidney or your brain. It’s a metabolism of a dividing cell. And the first hint (ph) of this came way back in 1924, (INAUDIBLE), in Germany. He said that cancers have aerobic glycolysis. That is, they, in the presence of oxygen, they just eat up sugar. And that’s glycolysis is glucose lysis, so -- and you can tell how dangerous a cancer is by how much lactic acid it is secreting. And it’s still true. If you do a PET scan, look at your body to see the cancer, those that light up are those that are high glycolysis. CHARLIE ROSE: So what do you think is possible? JAMES WATSON: I think we should focus, you know, we’ll need the things people are already developing. So I don’t think there is going to be one magic bullet in the future, but I think we need one more powerful sort of hit. CHARLIE ROSE: And what would that be? JAMES WATSON: Something which stops glycolysis. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. So if we could find that. How many people are working on that as we speak? JAMES WATSON: Well, I doubt it’s 1 percent of the cancer research community. And in the very super book by Bob Weinberg of MIT -- it came out three years ago -- if you look at the index, there is not one mention of glycolysis, not one mention of lactic acid, and no reference to the great Otto Barber (ph). CHARLIE ROSE: Now, why is that, do you think? JAMES WATSON: He’s not thinking about it. Most people aren’t. But I gave a course on cancer at Harvard in 1959. It’s the 50th anniversary. So I don’t think there is possibly anyone alive who gave a course on cancer before me. CHARLIE ROSE: Why are you so interested in cancer? JAMES WATSON: When I was 19, my father’s younger brother died of a malignant melanoma. And there was just no treatment, you know, it went metastatic, and tumors came all over his body. It was awful. And so I wanted to be an experimental biologist, why not cure cancer. And then between that, someone said you can’t do that until you find out the genes, so I had to find DNA. CHARLIE ROSE: So you found DNA, and then we mapped the human genome, why is it taking so long? What is the hardest nut to crack? JAMES WATSON: I don’t know why. It’s just, people don’t -- give (ph) up what they are doing. You know, they do something very well. They just like it. And but there are, you know, there are some very good people who, you know, I’m just following these people. I’m going off to Madrid in 10 days for a meeting on the energy of cancer. So you know, the energy. And not the genetics. So the genetic phase is, you know, always important. But the big things are about to be finished. CHARLIE ROSE: What do you mean the big things are about to be finished? JAMES WATSON: We’ll be able to sequence human cancer for $1,000 very soon. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: The whole cancer. Just like we could get your genome for $1,000 three years from today. CHARLIE ROSE: So what can we get now? We will be able to do what now? With cancer genome? JAMES WATSON: My genome was done two years ago. It cost a million dollars. All right, and now it will cost $20,000. CHARLIE ROSE: So this is for your genome. JAMES WATSON: For your genome. And soon our laboratory is going to get (ph) one of the new machines, where the cost are probably starting with $5,000 and soon down to $1,000. That’s incredible. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. And what have you learned from all the information you got from knowing your genome? JAMES WATSON: In my case, I learned two useful things. One is I confirmed my suspicion I shouldn’t eat too much ice cream, because -- no, it’s because I don’t digest lactose. So I only have one of the two genes that you probably have which lets you enjoy ice cream. CHARLIE ROSE: Right, and what else did you learn? JAMES WATSON: I learned that I don’t digest beta blockers. So when I was... CHARLIE ROSE: I’m surprised this is what you learned. Was there any predisposition from your genome? Did you find yourself having anything that would indicate you are predisposed or susceptible to some serious... JAMES WATSON: No, with age, your blood pressure rises. So the doctor saw mine going up... CHARLIE ROSE: You take drugs for that and you’re OK. JAMES WATSON: You take drugs, and a very effective drug is a beta blocker. So he gave me one, and within a week I was falling asleep in the middle of the afternoon. You know, middle of a play or something. You know, it was just grim. And then they gave me another beta blocker. I fell asleep again. And then the doctor, you know, on to an ace inhibitor, which didn’t seem to work. CHARLIE ROSE: So they basically said we can’t use beta blockers with Jim Watson? JAMES WATSON: Then Craig Venter’s group looked at my genome and compared it with his. And found that I have two copies of an Asian variant which metabolizes beta blockers at only 10 percent the rate that most Caucasians. CHARLIE ROSE: That is the problem right there. We do not have a large enough sample of human genomes so that we can look at them and make some really smart analysis, right or wrong? JAMES WATSON: Well... CHARLIE ROSE: Wrong? JAMES WATSON: In this case of beta blockers, we almost do. But certainly within 10 years, no one will go into, you know, get a beta blocker without their looking at the DNA first. CHARLIE ROSE: My point, though, isn’t that -- the point that we do not have enough human genome mapping of individuals to be able to have some sense of the comparisons? JAMES WATSON: No, I could form a company tomorrow. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. JAMES WATSON: And just do cytochrome P-450, these are the genes that code for enzymes that degrade drugs, OK. And then we would essentially tell. We could tell you whether you -- a beta blocker will work. You might have 10 copies of the gene and they won’t work at all because you will metabolize the drug in an hour instead of 24 hours. Other people are me -- I have a real slow metabolism. So... CHARLIE ROSE: But you can see that in your genetic... JAMES WATSON: Yes. And looking -- the whole genome, that’s a big thing. But you can just look at these set of genes and get it. So someone is going to form a company. And it will cut the cost of, you know, health insurance, because you won’t be taking the wrong medicine. CHARLIE ROSE: Now what about Alzheimer’s? JAMES WATSON: Alzheimer’s, I said I didn’t want to know. I put on the web my whole genome except the one for apolipo-protein E, of which the four variant predisposes you to Alzheimer’s. CHARLIE ROSE: You didn’t want to know. JAMES WATSON: No. My grandmother had Alzheimer’s, so that would have meant I have a one in four chance of having the gene. My mother died too soon to know whether she would have had the gene. And so, I didn’t want to know because I can’t do anything about it. So I just go under the assumption I’m not going to get Alzheimer’s. And if I do, then, you know, I will react in a speedy fashion. CHARLIE ROSE: One of the other things we have found out, in your case it is particularly appropriate because of schizophrenia, is how much of what we call -- thought of as psychological disorders have a brain science connection. JAMES WATSON: Schizophrenia is probably entirely genetic. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: And -- as is bipolar. And -- but it is going to be complicated, like cancer, you know. You said at the beginning, there are hundreds of genes which can predispose you to cancer. And there will be hundreds of different genes which predispose us to schizophrenia. The hope is that -- but we know that all these genes are connected with the functioning of the brain. They’re not concerned with the functioning of your kidney, they are really brain specific. And so hopefully, just like in cancer, even though there are hundreds of genes, there are interrelated pathways. And there are real sort of signal points, you know, where everything comes together. And if you block that, you really, you know, that is the one you go at. And we have got to do that much better than we can. Almost all our drugs start out with trying to attach to the dopamine 2 (ph), D-2 receptor, which is in a part of the brain. And -- in schizophrenia, you have too much dopamine in a part of your brain. So you cut it down, and then you are better off. There is no -- been no big improvement in the treatment of schizophrenia for 45 years. There are new drugs. They marginally improve it, but I have a son who has schizophrenia, and I can say that, you know, he is still awaiting a new medicine. CHARLIE ROSE: You also have said, though, that we know things now that would have changed your attitude about schizophrenia or the public attitude about schizophrenia. JAMES WATSON: Well, the only -- yes, I think, you know, thinking in terms of molecules, you can cure schizophrenia through drugs. You will never cure it by talking to someone. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. But you have also said that the 21st century will be marked by the convergence, by the convergence of biology and psychology. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: What did you mean? JAMES WATSON: That psychology will become a science. CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. OK, so in other words, psychology becomes a science, that’s easy. JAMES WATSON: And we’ll understand how the brain works. You know, in a sense, we, you know, understand how the chromosomes works. CHARLIE ROSE: That is happening rapidly now... JAMES WATSON: No, not really. CHARLIE ROSE: Really? JAMES WATSON: No, we don’t know how information is stored. CHARLIE ROSE: No, but we do know it’s science-based. I mean, we really do know that it is brain science that is at the core of many diseases we didn’t understand. JAMES WATSON: Yes. And we have done wonderful things at the level of how synapses work. But we still don’t know how the integration of, you know... CHARLIE ROSE: How we absorb information. JAMES WATSON: Yes, where it’s stored, anything about it. So people say, you know, we haven’t found the double helix of the brain yet. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. And you say that’s true? JAMES WATSON: Yes, I think it’s true. CHARLIE ROSE: So what is -- what we want to know most of all is how the brain works. How does it work in a healthy way? How does it absorb information? How does it translate information into all kinds of things? JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Am I right or wrong or halfway there? JAMES WATSON: Of course we want to know it. But as a father of a child with a serious mental disease, I want him better. So I want for us to do for the mental disease what we have been doing for cancer over the last 20 years, very effectively. You know, we know -- Gleevec works. (INAUDIBLE), we don’t know. CHARLIE ROSE: But that was one gene. JAMES WATSON: That was one. CHARLIE ROSE: In Gleevec. So Gleevec was able to attack one gene, because they knew the gene that causes leukemia. (CROSSTALK) JAMES WATSON: And you only had really one bad thing wrong. You didn’t have four or five. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: Most mature cancers have four or five. And so we just are attacking one or two. And we have to attack four or five, really, to, you know, get it in real shape. But for the brain, we need a commitment to understand the genes that go wrong in schizophrenia, bipolar disease, serious depression, autism. And so we need a real big program. We’re going to probably have to maybe even look at 100,000 genomes. CHARLIE ROSE: But shouldn’t this be like a... JAMES WATSON: It’s another billion-dollar project. CHARLIE ROSE: But so? JAMES WATSON: That’s not much money. CHARLIE ROSE: In the great scheme of things and what we are talking about today... JAMES WATSON: No, what we need in cancer research is to go to war again. And we need a general. What we need in mental disease is money. You know, we just have to get the facts. We have been spending money on cancer, I think very effectively. We now have just a wonderful collection of knowledge, which I think is more complete than a lot of other people do. So I think we’re really there. Mental disease, we haven’t started. We know about four genes, and probably none of them, you know, are major culprits. We’re just at the beginning. And so... CHARLIE ROSE: Is there something to this idea, that if we try to understand when something goes wrong, when something goes wrong with cells in the brain, and then maybe we can say then what if it went the other way, then we can get at what happens when things go right. JAMES WATSON: Yes. So what we said in cancer, we understand the cancer cell, which (INAUDIBLE) understanding the normal cell. Then we can really go to war against cancer. Until we know what it is, you know, don’t declare war when you don’t know the odds of winning. CHARLIE ROSE: But you think the odds of winning are pretty good. JAMES WATSON: I would say, I would define it as now 600,000 people, Americans die each year of cancer. All the treatments that we now have, if we didn’t have any medicine, 700,000. That’s because in many cases, we treat it, but you know, we don’t cure some of the disease. Instead of dying after two years, they die after 10. The disease is still there. Let us say we could cure pancreatic cancer, lung cancer... CHARLIE ROSE: Well, they think they will be able to do lung cancer, I think. JAMES WATSON: No. CHARLIE ROSE: No, that is the hardest one? JAMES WATSON: That is a real hard one. Because it is generally diagnosed late. It is not diagnosed like in leukemia, where it’s simple. CHARLIE ROSE: And that’s why most people die within a year. JAMES WATSON: Yes, yes. It’s diagnosed very late. So that is the problem. And... CHARLIE ROSE: What about breast cancer? JAMES WATSON: Breast cancer is one of the few cancers where we are curing, so. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: So we made progress really... CHARLIE ROSE: And why do we make progress in breast cancer and not make progress in lung cancer? JAMES WATSON: Probably it’s detected earlier. CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, so -- OK. Let me talk about your life. Why did you become a scientist? JAMES WATSON: Because I was real curious about life. I wanted to know what life was. And even earlier than that, I was fascinated with birds. You know, about the age of six, I was given my first bird book. And my father was an obsessive bird-watcher. And by the time I was 10, you know, my legs were long enough so I could go on real bird walks with him. And so -- and then I wanted to be questioned -- what is life. You know, it was a physical world and the living world. And there was a religious explanation, but early on in life, I sort of decided not to go with religion. So I wanted something else. CHARLIE ROSE: How do you feel about religion today? JAMES WATSON: It has many functions, so you know, I don’t want to stop people from being religious. I’m not out to... CHARLIE ROSE: You like the music and you said to me -- and you like the Bible. JAMES WATSON: Some parts of it. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: Not the beginning, but... CHARLIE ROSE: Right, right. JAMES WATSON: As you get in more towards the Jesus portion, I like it better. CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me this. When -- do you think the fact that you and Francis Crick discovered the structure of DNA mainly because you had superior intelligence, superior information, or superior personal qualities that led to your pursuit? JAMES WATSON: I think it was a combination of all three. CHARLIE ROSE: How would you balance them? Intelligence, information, drive. JAMES WATSON: Most important is drive. CHARLIE ROSE: Really? JAMES WATSON: Yeah. I really wanted to find the structure of DNA. Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins, who are physicists, it was an interesting problem. But it was, you know, Maurice was always more interested in stopping war, nuclear weapons. You know, I really was obsessed with wanting to know what life was. So Francis wasn’t thinking about DNA when I arrived in Cambridge. But he had read the little book "What is Life," like I did, Wilkinson read it. And Francis, you know, added an extreme intelligence to our side. And I had the drive. And... CHARLIE ROSE: Could you measure whether you or Francis was the most intelligent? JAMES WATSON: Oh, he was more intelligent. CHARLIE ROSE: How would you measure that, though? It is not the capacity to take tests. How would you measure it? JAMES WATSON: No, no no. He thought so fast. You know? CHARLIE ROSE: He thought fast. JAMES WATSON: Yeah, you know, I was younger than he, so, you know, he was older. He was trained in physics, a technique we really needed to get at the structure of DNA. So oh, anyone who met Francis, you know, he... CHARLIE ROSE: Said he is smarter than Jim. JAMES WATSON: Yes, yes. But that didn’t... CHARLIE ROSE: Francis alone would not have done it. JAMES WATSON: No, he wouldn’t have done it. CHARLIE ROSE: And you alone wouldn’t have done it. JAMES WATSON: I wouldn’t have been capable of doing it. There was a key fact, we call a base (ph) group, that Francis understood from the data. So that, and we did know it. And we learned it two weeks before we got the answer. And we didn’t use it to build the model, but it confirmed it. So the day we saw the base pair (ph) and said, well, this leads to this sort of structure, we knew it was confirmed by the data. So that is why we could be so, you know, joyously happy within two hours. Because it meant a confirmation. And Francis understood it. Rosalind Franklin didn’t understand it. She knew there was this thing but she never used it. If she had used it -- and she once tried to find out what it meant, but then, I think because of personal problems, she and the English (ph) Chris Lagerford (ph), Dorothy Hodgkin (ph), couldn’t talk to each other. And Dorothy could have told -- anyways, that meeting failed. And Rosalind never came to Francis and asked, you know, help me. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. JAMES WATSON: So... CHARLIE ROSE: Because you know people think that she doesn’t get enough credit. There have been films, documentaries about it. JAMES WATSON: Oh, yes. And you know, afterwards she became quite close to Francis, and she was a woman of high intelligence. She wasn’t in the league with Francis. Francis was just, you know, a phenomenon. And -- but she didn’t know enough. And she didn’t get help. And so, she sort of wasted her time. CHARLIE ROSE: Was there any part of you who looks at your life now, at your age now, and says, you know, I did this extraordinary thing, one of the great discoveries in science, at 25 -- right, 25? JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: And so, you know, what has the rest of my life been about? I made the great discovery. I could never top that. JAMES WATSON: But it didn’t matter. As long as there were other great things to do. You know ... CHARLIE ROSE: But you didn’t worry about that, damn, I’ve done this big thing and I will never be able to do anything like that again. JAMES WATSON: Now, you know, so many people want to be photographed next to them. Which is just, you know, just be photographed. So... CHARLIE ROSE: We were just here and someone who -- well-known and a very popular author, wanted you to sign a book. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: For their father. JAMES WATSON: Because DNA is so important, I sort of jokingly say, you know, I am the only famous scientist still alive. CHARLIE ROSE: No, no... (CROSSTALK) JAMES WATSON: ... and Madame Curie... (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: Not true, Stephen Hawking could be considered, but in a certain way. JAMES WATSON: Yes, yes, so, but yes, if you are in England. But the fame doesn’t matter. You know, I won’t... CHARLIE ROSE: It does matter. It does matter. JAMES WATSON: Well, it lets me have other -- I won’t be happy until we cure cancer. I mean, you know, that’s what I want to do. CHARLIE ROSE: But here’s -- you have been all over the place. I mean, suppose after 25, after the structure of DNA, you and Francis had said, all right, let’s set off and get the next big challenge. And the next big challenge is cancer. Let’s you and I go after it. You were the most famous scientists in the world. You could have amassed huge amounts of research money at that time. JAMES WATSON: No. CHARLIE ROSE: Wrong? JAMES WATSON: Yes, well, we didn’t know how to do it. We had to find out how DNA goes to RNA, goes to protein. And so, I made the plunge in 1968 when I went to Cold Spring Harbor, and said the main purpose of Cold Spring Harbor will be to understand cancer. I said we have to understand it before we cure it. And soon afterwards, President Nixon declared... CHARLIE ROSE: War on cancer. JAMES WATSON: ... a war on cancer. And I was pleased, except that I didn’t think victory was going to come very soon. And -- but I was put on the first presidential committee. And we moved after two years, because I don’t see victory. I went to MIT and I got into deep trouble when I said we are -- MIT is really, this is a very good use of federal money. We are bringing the cancer problem to brains, not to the patients. You know, the idea was take cancer, hospitals do science there, I said it’s better done at MIT. Now it should go back to the hospital. I want it in the hospital. CHARLIE ROSE: But you have gotten in trouble with what you say, and what you write, more than -- and I don’t know whether it’s simply because you are the most candid person alive, or whether you have no edit function in your brain. JAMES WATSON: I’m constantly -- because, you know, I think out aloud. And, you know, sometimes it is inappropriate, and I’m terribly embarrassed and I write letters, and I try and hope people will forgive me. CHARLIE ROSE: Beg for forgiveness. JAMES WATSON: I beg -- and you know, I apologize. I (INAUDIBLE) apologize. I didn’t, you know, I said some, you know, about people who stood in my way, you know. They wanted to regulate DNA. It was complete lunacy. And this woman (INAUDIBLE) came to be a regulator, I thought she is my enemy. So I -- I was very inappropriate... CHARLIE ROSE: Did you think they might -- go ahead. JAMES WATSON: Yes. Someone had to come out, you know, we’re saying Obama -- Obama has finally got it, you know -- say what it is. Finally go after your opponents. Because if you don’t, you know, go after them, they are going to kill you. CHARLIE ROSE: So that is your message to him today. He needs to get tough with his opponents. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Is your point. JAMES WATSON: Yes. I mean... CHARLIE ROSE: His critics. JAMES WATSON: Yes, you know, I just think, you know, there are some enemies who won’t go away no matter what you do. All these people want to keep medicine expensive. CHARLIE ROSE: Ah. So it’s about that. JAMES WATSON: Yes, yes. CHARLIE ROSE: These are insurance companies and -- and medical establishment or... JAMES WATSON: Everyone is, you know, you know, they want to keep you alive as long as possible, because when you disappear, there is no more money coming in from you. CHARLIE ROSE: So there is too much -- too much services in the last year and too many thieves to be gained in the last year. JAMES WATSON: Yes, I mean... CHARLIE ROSE: That’s it in a nutshell. JAMES WATSON: Yes, we should all die cheaply. CHARLIE ROSE: How do we die cheaply? By not having the advantage of all the modern machines? JAMES WATSON: Yes, it’s not appropriate for this program. You know, I don’t want to offend people. But I’m just sort of saying, you know, there are life-and-death decisions. And you make your own decision as to whether you want to go ahead when your heart is not beating very well and your kidney is failing, and you know, these are these sorts of personal things. But you know, it is a very separate issue. But I mean, we’ve got to reduce, you know, not only do we have to cure cancer, but we have got to do it cheaply. You know, we can’t... CHARLIE ROSE: Can we do it cheaply, though? JAMES WATSON: A couple of the drugs I think will be very cheap. You know, so... CHARLIE ROSE: But Gleevec was already there, the drug, I mean, what he did, the analysis was understanding the gene and knowing there was a drug for the gene. JAMES WATSON: Yes. And -- but we can’t spend 50 percent of our GDP on health care. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: So... CHARLIE ROSE: It is not 50 yet, is it? JAMES WATSON: No, but it’s 18 percent, now going to... (CROSSTALK) JAMES WATSON: And every time we subdivide cancer and find out -- subdivide it even more... CHARLIE ROSE: Here is what I... JAMES WATSON: The only thing I have done is they told me I had low- grade prostate cancer. And I decided to do nothing. You know, that cost $1,000, which, you know, probably, I have a nonexistent PSA. And so -- so you know, I did my own thing. But I just don’t want to worry about it, you know. I want to worry about curing cancer. I don’t want to worry about dying from it. You can just worry all your life, or you can be, you know, positive, and you know, you should never do something unless you think you can win. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. JAMES WATSON: So you know... CHARLIE ROSE: You should never do anything unless you think you can win. See, I don’t think that’s true, Jim. You should -- I mean, you can’t be guaranteed that you are going to win. I mean, you should go out there and... JAMES WATSON: Oh, what I mean... CHARLIE ROSE: A lot of people say -- a lot of people -- go ahead. JAMES WATSON: No, what I am saying is you think you have a probability. When I was in Cambridge, I always thought, you know, maybe I have a 30 percent chance of winning. CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. JAMES WATSON: So that was big enough. CHARLIE ROSE: A 30 percent chance, that is enough. JAMES WATSON: What I am saying, don’t go for 1 or 2 percent. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. In other words... JAMES WATSON: And so what I am saying... CHARLIE ROSE: ... spend your energy where there is a likelihood that you can find and put together a... JAMES WATSON: Sure. CHARLIE ROSE: ... forces that would lead to a positive result. JAMES WATSON: Yes. And if it is a really big and important objective and it only 20 percent, go, because the objective is so good that you will take the chance. And at my age, you know, you could say that is a great advantage, your reputation, I don’t have to do anything. And -- but it just -- I have been in cancer research for so long, and I’m so excited that I think it’s finally come together. And that wasn’t true five years ago. CHARLIE ROSE: There has been that much change in five years? JAMES WATSON: Oh, yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Tell us one more time what the change is in five years, other than understanding the genetic basis of cancer. JAMES WATSON: I can tell you. (INAUDIBLE), you could say there are enzymes involved, or proteins involved in growth signals, which Gleevec is blocking one of those pathways. And then there are other enzymes just involved in making your amino acids and digesting what we call intermediary metabolism, all the small molecules floating around. Small, flat molecules, et cetera. And then they go to build your body. CHARLIE ROSE: Right. JAMES WATSON: And so what we want to go at is this metabolism. And it is a new thing. I’m going to Spain, it’s a meeting on metabolism. So... CHARLIE ROSE: But you are convinced you are on the right track. JAMES WATSON: Yes, and there are other people on it. So it’s not I’m the only one. But you know, the majority of people are quite happy. I was in a big lab (ph) in Cambridge, I couldn’t believe it, 400 people. Not one of them thinking of metabolism. I thought they’re jerks. (LAUGHTER) JAMES WATSON: 400. You know, all... CHARLIE ROSE: You probably told them, too. JAMES WATSON: No, no, of course not. I tried to be very polite, and then I gave a talk later in the day, in which I said, but it was just -- you know, you should diversify. You try this, you try that. But you know, I get into trouble because I want to succeed. You know, I have strong... CHARLIE ROSE: You get into trouble because you can’t control yourself. But sometimes we don’t know, I mean, just take the race stuff in Africa and Europe. You have apologized profusely and you said I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it, I’m whatever. You have done everything that I know a man can do. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Question still is, how could someone as smart as you are say what you did? JAMES WATSON: Oh, I was saying something to a girl -- I never thought of her as a reporter. She lived in our house for a year. CHARLIE ROSE: But that doesn’t make any difference. I mean, you said it. JAMES WATSON: I was treating her like a daughter. And... CHARLIE ROSE: But that doesn’t make any difference either. Did you think the thought? JAMES WATSON: Sure, I thought the thought, whether it was right or wrong. I didn’t think it was appropriate ever to say it in public. And someone had sent Steve Pinker and I (sic) a book, and so I just looked at the book. And there were these facts. The girl, who, you know, she lived with us 10 years ago. She had lived in Africa a few years ago. I have been to Africa a number of times and liked it. And we started talking about Africa. And that is all. So you know, I -- it was just awful. And... CHARLIE ROSE: You recognized it was awful. JAMES WATSON: Oh, God, yes, instantly. I saw -- you know, this is worst trouble I’m ever in my life... CHARLIE ROSE: It was. JAMES WATSON: ... because it hurt people, and I didn’t intend to hurt people. And it implied that some people I work with I have poor impressions of. I don’t. I don’t have people around me that I don’t have high impressions of. And, you know -- so I -- I didn’t want to get into trouble, it was not my main interest. I don’t think about it, you know, 1 percent of the time. I had no reason to -- and I am not an expert on it. When I talk to you about cancer... CHARLIE ROSE: You know something. JAMES WATSON: I just read a book, and some other people said it. And so I can’t -- I’ve never measured IQ in my life. I did take a course on it... CHARLIE ROSE: I don’t want you to get into any deeper trouble here. JAMES WATSON: No, no, but I’m saying I took a course on IQ at the University of Chicago in 1947. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. JAMES WATSON: Because I was interested in why I had a low IQ. CHARLIE ROSE: You have a low IQ? JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: You do? JAMES WATSON: Yes. I’m fast but... CHARLIE ROSE: What does that mean, though, I mean, what... JAMES WATSON: I don’t know. But you know, I’m around 120. And you know, there are all these super genius you hear... CHARLIE ROSE: Right, 180 and 200... JAMES WATSON: Yes, and all that. So you know, I was just about good enough to get into a good school. CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. JAMES WATSON: So you know, there was no reason to pick it out. And so that is why... CHARLIE ROSE: Are you interested in what makes us intelligent? JAMES WATSON: Yes, it is a real hard problem. CHARLIE ROSE: I know it is. JAMES WATSON: Very hard. And attempts so far to find genes totally failed. And you know, I won’t go into --. CHARLIE ROSE: We cannot find a gene that determines intelligence. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: You say that, but that is the issue, isn’t it? JAMES WATSON: Yes, but sometimes, you know, yes, there is a lot we don’t know, yes. So you know, until you find genes, and --. CHARLIE ROSE: Steven Pinker’s argument, as you well know, is that these problems, we are never going to answer these problems. That some of this stuff about the brain is just too huge for... JAMES WATSON: Well, as a scientist, I never want to say that. So you know, all I will say is over the next 20 years, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily put my career on it. You know... CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. JAMES WATSON: You know, it is not something that we are going to get definitive answers over the next couple of years. So it’s a very complicated issue. And -- but I want to say, you know, we had a meeting, and (INAUDIBLE), it was my 80th birthday. Can we make our brains work better? Because as you get older, your brain doesn’t work. So I was all for... CHARLIE ROSE: You were all for doing this. JAMES WATSON: Yeah, I was all for, you know, brain improvement. Unfortunately, you know, I didn’t, you know, what they say is lead an active life. CHARLIE ROSE: Exercise more and all that. JAMES WATSON: All that. And I do that. And so, but you know, these are very hard questions to answer. And I just... CHARLIE ROSE: But you believe we will know the answer? We’ll know the answer by consciousness and will and -- mind. JAMES WATSON: Yes, I sort of think we will. But you know, I wouldn’t, you know -- Francis Crick spent the last 25 years of his life trying to think what the brain was and focusing on consciousness. It was just too hard. You know, he was interested. He didn’t have to do -- make another great discovery in his life, so he had a lot of fun. But Francis and I are difficult. Maybe it’s because I came from a more, you know, less privileged environment. I don’t want to do anything unless I think I am going to succeed. CHARLIE ROSE: You said that. JAMES WATSON: You know, I go back... CHARLIE ROSE: And Francis knew that he might not succeed. JAMES WATSON: Oh, sure. CHARLIE ROSE: But he had... (CROSSTALK) JAMES WATSON: He had fun and... CHARLIE ROSE: He lived in La Jolla, which is not a bad place to live. JAMES WATSON: And he was very inspirational to the people at the Salk Institute, which is, you know, the Salk Institute and Cold Spring Harbor were sort of competitors. So we were in both places... CHARLIE ROSE: You have liked being Jim Watson. JAMES WATSON: Yes. (LAUGHTER) JAMES WATSON: Yes, no, I don’t dislike myself. CHARLIE ROSE: No, not yourself, but Jim Watson is beyond yourself. I mean, it is different because of what you did and when you did it and how much it’s celebrated. Look, how many times on this program have scientists put what you achieved at the top rank of scientific achievement? You are way up there in the top 10 of everything. JAMES WATSON: Yes, well, you know, DNA is in the top 10, and I was just born in the right year. No, I was. If I had been born three years before or three years afterward... CHARLIE ROSE: You would not have done it. JAMES WATSON: I would not have done it and no one would have ever heard of me. I would probably be... CHARLIE ROSE: We wouldn’t care about all these things you’ve written and said. JAMES WATSON: No, I -- I know I would have got in trouble wherever I was, because you know, I -- I want progress. That is all. It’s just not, you know, I never pick on, you know, unimportant people. It’s important people who, you know, I don’t -- you know, I think, you know, a fairly Christian sense of -- you know, I don’t want to hit those who are down. CHARLIE ROSE: You don’t pick on the weak. You pick on the strong. JAMES WATSON: Yes, I pick on the strong. CHARLIE ROSE: Those are in your way in terms of what you think is the right course to take. JAMES WATSON: Yes, it’s just -- comes from, I think I’m part -- I’ve been successful because I’m very impatient. CHARLIE ROSE: Well said. JAMES WATSON: You know, that’s how I am, impatient. I just can’t wait until we, you know, -- yes, I want to test the drug (ph) out. I’m really excited. CHARLIE ROSE: It’s a wonderful quality. It is a wonderful quality. JAMES WATSON: So you know, science is a wonderful thing. I gave a -- I was at the 75th anniversary of the Sloan Foundation. And because of my age, I was the only one there who was at the 25th anniversary, you know, 50 years ago. You know, I was the youngest person there probably in 1959. And Dwight Eisenhower came and gave the talk. And his title of his talk, "Science: The Handmaiden of Freedom." The title of the symposium was "Science: The Handmaiden of Industry." Eisenhower extended it to freedom, and he said we won’t be free unless we have very high-quality science. And we should nurture our science. And he made an announcement that he was going to recommend that $100 million be spent on the linear accelerator at Stanford. And his speech was wonderful. I think Eisenhower was a great president. You know, no president loved science more than Eisenhower, or saw it advancing freedom. And I think saying freedom is very important. You can’t have freedom without knowledge. So, yeah. CHARLIE ROSE: Legacy. JAMES WATSON: Just -- don’t underestimate yourself. Just go for it. You know, there are big things and there are minor things. And you know, I just like to stop disease. CHARLIE ROSE: Were you born with this or did you... JAMES WATSON: Probably, I think so. CHARLIE ROSE: It’s in your genes. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: It’s a behavioral characteristic, but it’s in your genes. Behavior is in genes. JAMES WATSON: Yes, yes, you know, I’m probably a mutant. CHARLIE ROSE: A mutant. JAMES WATSON: Yes, I suspect, you know, somehow this impatience or something wasn’t present (ph). You know, I am a, you know, a distant cousin of Orson Welles, his grandmother was a Watson. So, you know, my father’s uncle helped raise Orson. So I heard about it. But he must have been impatient. CHARLIE ROSE: Clearly was impatient. JAMES WATSON: You know, he was declared a genius at 18 months. CHARLIE ROSE: Is that right? JAMES WATSON: Yes. Whereas I think people thought I was a genius when I -- I was old. I was 20. You know. At 20, my teachers liked me because I was really... CHARLIE ROSE: Did they think of you as a genius when you were 20? JAMES WATSON: That I might do something. CHARLIE ROSE: They did. JAMES WATSON: You know, that I... CHARLIE ROSE: They thought you had a spark of intelligence and will and impatience. JAMES WATSON: Yes, impatience. And you know, that I was -- in a hurry. And you know, you know, I just... CHARLIE ROSE: Has impatience ever caused you to have conflict about actions you took? In other words... JAMES WATSON: Oh, sure. I mean, you know... CHARLIE ROSE: You might trample over something or somebody in order to... JAMES WATSON: I don’t think I ever ruined someone else’s career by my impatience, you know. CHARLIE ROSE: What might you have done? JAMES WATSON: Well, you know, you could put a graduate student on a problem that has a low probability of success. But if it succeeded, you know, it would be what I needed. So I never risked anyone else for my impatience. You know, you risk yourself. CHARLIE ROSE: Have you paid a price for your impatience? JAMES WATSON: I’ve been on very few committees. (LAUGHTER) CHARLIE ROSE: I agree with that, absolutely. JAMES WATSON: OK. CHARLIE ROSE: Absolutely. JAMES WATSON: So, but I had some wonderful friends and a wonderful wife. The Cold Spring Harbor has been a wonderful place to live, and Cambridge, England was just, you know, unbelievably beautiful and of high quality. So you know, I have seen the world at its best. And you know, so you know, President Obama and I are both South Side of Chicago people, you know. CHARLIE ROSE: And you started at the University of Chicago. JAMES WATSON: Yes. Great education. And... CHARLIE ROSE: How about the humanities, or you know, this argument between the bridge between science and the humanities that C.P. Snow spoke to? JAMES WATSON: There is a big gap, but I love the humanities, in the sense of art and music and literature. And science is very much part of our culture as well as, you know, it’s a way of thinking and of getting knowledge. I spend a lot of time reading London Review of Books, New York Review of Books, you know, just -- I don’t spend as much time reading the books. I try and get the guts of the book because it will give you ideas. CHARLIE ROSE: Do you like music? JAMES WATSON: Yes. I have no talent whatsoever. CHARLIE ROSE: But you like it, I mean, music... JAMES WATSON: Oh, I love it, you know, virtuoso... CHARLIE ROSE: There is a sense that scientists have some affinity for music, especially mathematicians. JAMES WATSON: Yeah, but you know, I think some music is so complicated, you need almost a mathematician’s mind to put together Prokofiev or something like this. So, but you know, my parents liked music, and I went to children’s concerts of the Chicago symphony. So you know, I was -- you know, our house was filled with books. And you know, we didn’t have money to go to the Cubs games. You listened on the radio, virtually every game, but your money was spent on books. My father was a Cubs fan. (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: So you became a Cubs fan. JAMES WATSON: And you know, I had this sort of Protestant Catholic division. And I think the White Sox were the Catholic team. And the Cubs were the North Side, which wasn’t as Catholic as the South Side. CHARLIE ROSE: Life has given you most of the things that you would have wanted. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Has it not? JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: It’s given you opportunity. It’s given you fame. It’s given you. JAMES WATSON: A family I love. CHARLIE ROSE: Family. JAMES WATSON: Yes. So -- but you know, there is a whole world of people which don’t have opportunity and... CHARLIE ROSE: Exactly. Depending where they were born, often, right? JAMES WATSON: So over the current thing, I would gladly be taxed on my superior health benefits in order to, you know, that’s one of issues that Obama should -- should those with really high quality health-care plans be leveled off with those who don’t get such high employers. And I think we should. So, you know, I think in that sense, the fair treatment of all our citizens, I feel very strongly about it. CHARLIE ROSE: You know, when "Time" magazine did their millennium issue and they looked back at 100 years and they said who has been the most influential person, influential, they chose Einstein. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: But they chose Einstein because of the power of science is why they chose him. JAMES WATSON: And in particular, the enormous power of physics. Physics was the sort of queen of science. CHARLIE ROSE: It was the science of the 20th, first half of the 20th century. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: And the last quarter of the 20th century, molecular biology. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: What is it going to be for the 21st century? JAMES WATSON: I hope psychology. CHARLIE ROSE: Do you really? JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: Psychology? JAMES WATSON: Yes, because I would love to be able to know enough so many people wouldn’t be depressed. I think we have to, you know, depression is an awful thing. CHARLIE ROSE: But it has a genetic basis. JAMES WATSON: Yes, but, you know, I would just like to, you know, understand the basis of it enough, and you know, we’re raising money for still another meeting on depression at Cold Spring Harbor. CHARLIE ROSE: But the convergence of psychology and science is coming together. JAMES WATSON: Yes. But it seems really that we will understand human beings better so we treat them better. A case in point I think is, you know, understanding what is now called high intelligent autism, sort of Asperger’s Syndrome, where people just are socially inept. But wizzes when you put them behind a computer. And we have sort of --- thought it was their fault, you know, that they didn’t seek help. And you know, sometimes they are socially inept and make enemies. And now I think you see all these people, it is not their fault that they don’t talk to you. They are just sort of afraid to talk to you. They don’t know how to talk to you. And so, you have to go out and really help them. So that is a new group of people. And fortunately, you know, in the past, they had no jobs. But now they can do work on the computer, and boy, do we need them. So you know, sort of -- you know, when I was a boy, mathematicians were just odd people. You know, that was something -- it was sort of common-sense remark. Just, you know... CHARLIE ROSE: They were wired differently. JAMES WATSON: They were wired differently, and so they weren’t very social. But you know, whether Bill Gates fits into this category, but he’s made an enormous contribution. CHARLIE ROSE: He’s social. JAMES WATSON: Well, look, I am just saying -- I read things where people put him under this rubric. CHARLIE ROSE: Some people as they approach their 80s and especially if they know that the end is near, began to want to reach out to people that they have had conflicts with. You, for example, had a long-standing rift with E.O. Wilson. JAMES WATSON: Yes. CHARLIE ROSE: But you guys... JAMES WATSON: Oh, we’re great friends. CHARLIE ROSE: Great friends now. Came back together. JAMES WATSON: Yes. I haven’t had that many enemies. CHARLIE ROSE: OK, fair enough. The question was are there other people like E.O. Wilson that you at some point think about... JAMES WATSON: There are some people whose politics dominate their biology. And they generally have been opponents of Ed Wilson. They are opponents of me. I can’t find anything worthwhile about them. I don’t want to reach out. (CROSSTALK) CHARLIE ROSE: Well, we won’t even name them. JAMES WATSON: No, no, no, of course. But I’m just saying that... CHARLIE ROSE: Their politics does not allow scientific reasoning? JAMES WATSON: Well, you know, now I’m -- I just wish there were more real Republicans around. You know, I like them. But you know, when I was a boy, I didn’t. I miss them because you just got a lot of phony Republicans now, and they’re Southern Democrats. And they’re not what, you know, my father’s family was. CHARLIE ROSE: Your father’s family were Republicans. JAMES WATSON: Oh, solidly. My father was the only, you know, (INAUDIBLE), he was the only son and he was a Democrat. So I’m just trying to say that I am much more, you know, you know, I have great affection for Bill Safire, well, you know. And he was a wonderful man. And you know, when I would read his columns, boy, they would make me mad. CHARLIE ROSE: I hear you. JAMES WATSON: But now, I realize maybe he was right, many of the cases. So you know, he was a great American. So I think in that extent, as you get older, you just seek out these sort of petty things that divided you when you were young. And so, yes, I think I’m, you know, I will always have a few people that I think still are standing in my way. But -- but, you know, I like America. America is a wonderful country. And you know, and I (INAUDIBLE) down on multi-nationalism, just because we seem to be forgetting how wonderful our own country is. You know, and we really have to help Americans. You know, it’s not just -- there is a lot of parts of America which should have a much better chance. CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you for coming. JAMES WATSON: Thank you very much. CHARLIE ROSE: James Watson for the hour. Thank you for joining us. See you next time. END 24